Triac machine advice

All info relating to the Denford Triac series of CNC milling machines

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opentoideas
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun 15 Mar , 2020 3:03 am

Triac machine advice

Post by opentoideas » Sun 15 Mar , 2020 3:24 am

Hi, new to the forum and looking for advice.

I am thinking about trying to find a Triac to replace my old Bridgeport and move into the world of CNC

Are there any things to look out for or be aware of?

While i may some day venture down the road of converting the electronics and adding a 4th axis i am also happy to use the existing if it works. As at first it will be learning so should be fine or possibly more than i will need.

I think the ATC would be worthwhile having and cooling while easy to add would also be nice.

From what i can tell 3 phase machines look to be simple to convert to single phase??

Anything to watch out for or anything to avoid?
Any advice?

Should you have one tucked in the back of a shed then also please give me a shout

Thanks in advance

opentoideas
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun 15 Mar , 2020 3:03 am

Re: Triac machine advice

Post by opentoideas » Mon 16 Mar , 2020 14:01 pm

so to expand on my muddled thinking.......

i have manual mill and lathe but no expert. i also use fusion360 with a 3D printer so have some knowledge of CAD-CAM

requirements are steel, aluminium or brass odd jobs and varied parts - i know worst case generalised with no specific focus

I have seen a NovaMill and while nicely made it was too small for me but the Triac seems to fit the bill

looking around there seem to be lots of variants out there and while it loos like any of them would be more than sufficient for my needs there also seem to be some variants that would be nice...

without ATC an R8 spindle seems likely and for cheap tooling thats great

with ATC either BT30 (still available tooling) or BT35 (if it dos not come with tooling this could get tricky)

while i dont think i will need the ATC i can see it being useful so think it would be good to have as i learn more??

axis drives are either stepper (likely) or servo(not as common) opinions go from one being better (take your pick which one) to no real difference to this particular machine...... i have no clue but like the sound of closed loop servo but dont see any reason to worry either way any further information would be great on this as i am completely ignorant.

control varies from the standard to full on Fanuc systems that are held in reverence but have industrial pricing for replacements if they fail.

it looks like any working control would be fine for me and code can be drip fed to the Fanuc? worst case replacing the control is well documented for all though possibly unnecessary or undesirable. i dont feel the desperate need to replace this unless there is an overwhelming reason to do so but again it may not be an option depending on the machine i find.

so my current thinking is to look for a machine that is mechanically sound. everything else can be dealt with if needed.

is there any benefit on the servo vs stepper drives? would a servo machine have been more likely to be in a production environment rather than educational so wear and tear more of an issue?

opentoideas
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun 15 Mar , 2020 3:03 am

Re: Triac machine advice

Post by opentoideas » Wed 18 Mar , 2020 13:44 pm

Given the current state of affairs in the UK and globally I am hoping that people may have more time online so please let me know if my muddled thinking makes any sense or if I am being a complete fool - just say hello so I know I am not talking to myself :lol:

unusually for a home workshop I have already been through the 3-phase issue and since I regularly cut and weld I already have 80kVA available to run my welders and air so i can run 3 phase kit but my Colchester Triumph and BRJ Bridgeport both are far bigger than I need so they are going to be replaced by hopefully a Triac and similar sized CNC lathe at some point

while single phase for these is preferable I can run and work 3 phase in the short term with ease.

my end goal is small engine making hence the lack of materials focus, speed while nice isn't my goal. I appreciate the quality of old machines and these look like a pretty good example.

thanks to this forum I have found out lots of great info and I think my reasoning is sound but this is likely to be a substantial investment for me so I do not want to make a silly mistake due to my own ignorance.

thanks and hope to speak soon

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Lone_Ranger
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Re: Triac machine advice

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 19 Mar , 2020 11:19 am

A couple of points you raise, on the matter of Servo versus Stepper there is absolutely no doubt that Servos are way better, two reasons, one they hold their rated torque across their rpm range whereas the Steppers do not, two, Servo systems will in all probability have a full closed loop system back to the Motion Controller, Stepper systems do not have this, even the modern Hybrid Stepper systems only have a closed loop back to the Stepper Drive, while this is a way better systen than the straight basic Stepper system that is found on most Triacs out there it doesn`t compare with a system that has full feedback from Servo encoders direct to the Motion Controller.

So, unless you want to dive in head first on a machine that has either a Fanuc or Heidenhain type full industrial control that as you have already surmised will have done a lot of work and be pretty worn and very expensive to repair should it ever be needed then may I suggest you look at something like the Triac that is currently up for sale on Ebay, it doesn`t look to have done much work at all and probably only machined soft materials like Foam/Printed Circuit Board etc etc for Studentto learn on. It would need you to contact Denford to get a price for the software needed and also check if this particular machine will run the later VR5 software, if my memory is correct the earlier motion control hardware would only run the older software versions. The hardware like axis drives, IO cards and the Denstep and Eurostep control cards are no longer available and getting one repaired these days is not cheap.

My take on it would be look at the one on Ebay, it will probably be mechanically very good and look at it with a view to possibly having to retro fit the machine with modern electronics sometime in the future, almost a certainty, a question of when not if. It has already been modified to use the Easy Change (Coventry) tooling which unfortunately is most certainly not the cheapest but is excellent quality, I have used the system for years !! You could also easily remove the holder and use the original R8 system.
Going CNC is not easy or cheap particularly if you want quality, there are dozens of cheap Chinese for you to choose from if not !
Here is the link to the Triac on Ebay:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denford-Tria ... SwxFVeGKnt

A few years ago I helped to do a conversion to a full Servo system for a friend on one of the older Green Triacs, we used a Gallil multi axis motion controller, Mitsubishi Servos and a Yaskawa 1.3Kw Servo for the spindle drive, the main advantage of this was the ability to have Rigid Tapping, all in all a lovely conversion and well worth the time and cost in the end :)

Hope this is of some help to you.
Regards
Rob

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