Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

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Dangle_kt
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Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Dangle_kt » Mon 27 Mar , 2017 10:37 am

Hi, I have just bought a 2nd hand Starturn 8, it is well used but I'm only after basic turning for small components so should be up to the job.

It runs on DOS and has a auto changer turret which is cool.

The turret buzzes a bit, when idle, not sure if that will turn into an issue in the long run, but a more pressing problem has come up.

I switched it on for the first time, and was jogging around, it was all working fine (though there is a pretty big lag between command via keyboard and machine response), I jogged down in X to see what clearance I had with the tool changer, and there was a click noise and everything stopped.

I assumed it was the limit switch, so I jogged back towards the centre of the axis..the screen counter showed it was moving, but the physcial machine sat still, no noise, no smoke, just wouldn't respond.

Does anyone have any idea what it might be?

I have checked the fuses and they look good (but the wire is so fine it's hard to see I will check them for continuity on a multimeter) - any advice, anyone had this happen?

Thanks

Martin
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Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Martin » Mon 27 Mar , 2017 16:10 pm

Does your machine have a limit switch overide button on it? It should be near the Emergency Stop button. If it does press it & hold it in while you move the axis away from the limit switch then release.

TDIPower
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Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by TDIPower » Mon 27 Mar , 2017 22:48 pm

ATC buzzing is normal, the motor drives forwards at 24v to change tool, it goes past the point and then switches to 12v in reverse, it holds in reverse to ensure the turret stays put. The motor will get hot, which is frustrating if you catch it with your hand.

When you load up the program you should then press F10, go down to machine control, you should then home/zero x and then z before you can carry out any traversing, is it not letting you do that now?

A word of warning. I have found if you need to emergency stop or the power goes off when you are doing a drilling/boring operation you can't back the tool out! The system (unless there is a secret way of doing this) will not let you move in Z unless it has been homed in X first. Even with the power off I was unable to turn the screw under the bellows in Z by hand which is an issue. I'm not sure why there is this restriction on homing and am going to look into some way to be able to turn the screw if this happens again (Had a drill snap in a job and a boring bar collision due to an offset error).

Are you using a PC with dedicated RS232 ports or USB to RS232 converters? What OS are you running? are you running a DOSBOX or DOS prompt from within windows?
When I first started with my Starturn 5 I found issues using some USB to RS232 converters. I was running through a laptop, XP and tried DOSBOX an DOS window. When I changed over to a proper PC with 2 genuine RS232 ports running XP and through a DOS window everything ran fine although when running a DOS window and the Tutor keyboard Windows does not see the keyboard as you doing something with the PC and will go to sleep! so worth turning that all off.

Its a bit frustrating having going back to DOS and not being able to configure the default file locations and having to give them numeric file names.

I had also hoped that when you set the tool offsets they would reference to tool 1, so when you load a new billet you would only need to face and edge tool 1 (all others would then be configured) but alas no, you need to face and edge them all for each job. You could reference them all on a test job, do the math so you can just type in all the offsets when you face/edge tool one on your real jobs.

Hope some of that is of Help

Pete

Dangle_kt
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon 27 Mar , 2017 9:54 am
Hardware/Software: Denford Novamill
Denford Startturn 8 with turret
Haas TM1
A big hammer
Fusion 360 CAD/CAM

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Dangle_kt » Tue 28 Mar , 2017 9:30 am

Thanks is both, i will look at all those.

It's a full dos pc, no other os on it, with the turning software on a floppy disk - proper retro! and yes it runs out the parrarell/serial port, though the cable into the lathe is round, not long and thin like an rs232.

Interesting about the turret, glad its not an issue buzzing.

I know the machine is somewhat limited, but honestly i wont be doing anything too complex on it, so it should serve my purposes.

TDIPower
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Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by TDIPower » Tue 28 Mar , 2017 21:33 pm

It is only RS232 not parallel to both the Machine and tutor keyboard.

I'm still getting to grips with the getting the tool offsets right. Boring is my current issue. Thought I had it nailed that was until it tired to take a 3mm deep pass!! Lucky I was able to open the chuck up take the jaws out and wiggle the material out. It was 30mm dia so I couldn't slide it further into the chuck.

Interested to know how you get one.

How will you generate your programs?

Pete

Dangle_kt
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon 27 Mar , 2017 9:54 am
Hardware/Software: Denford Novamill
Denford Startturn 8 with turret
Haas TM1
A big hammer
Fusion 360 CAD/CAM

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Dangle_kt » Thu 06 Apr , 2017 11:52 am

So you guys are genius'!

Thank you for the tip about the reset button - it worked a charm.

Seems what I thought was a home switch is actually a limit switch, and the reset is needed to get the axis to move again.

I assumed the machine needed to find home before working properly, but after playing yesterday I can see that isn't the case - so I'm not sure how the machine knows where it is - but I'm happy it works.

Using the dos interface is very different to what I am used to - previously I have used fusion 360 to make code, USB stick into the side of my HAAS and it mills the part - this is much more simplistic but also involves me having to engage my brain - no bad thing, and I need to use G code.

Few things I have learned for others finding there way round the DOS interface

To replace the default values in the manual mode (feed rate/spindle RPM) so the arrow keys and space bar work more reasonably than 1200mm/min feedrate (crash tastic with the slow response time!) you have to run them in a programme at a different rate and the manual mode just uses the last used feedrate/spindle RPM.

The CNC editor is pretty easy to use for simple operations, G00, G01 takes care of most of what I will need.

I do what to learn G03 (I think thats what it is) which is CCLW or CL radius - I am assuming this puts a chamfer on an edge or round end on a part?

I am going to try dosbox on my PC with the usb floppy disc drive I have, see if i can throw some simple code from fusion into the floppy and take it in that way...not sure it will work!

I am assuming the G54 is what is referred to as X and Z Datum, and is just a zero figure the co-ordinates drive from?

Also the tool offsets - is this done by using tool 1 or whichever as a master tool, setting the XZ datum as above using it, and then all the other tools (2-8) are set as adjustments against the O,O of the datum? That way you can change stock, set datum using tool 1 and all the tool offsets hold true?

Lots to learn, but I like it - and the surface finish I got on Delrin was really good :D

TDIPower
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Posts: 595
Joined: Tue 29 Apr , 2014 18:38 pm
Hardware/Software: Starturn 5 (sort of running, I will get this done!)
Lathe cam designer V1.11
Quickturn 2D Design
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VR2 and VR5
Boxford VMC260
Techsoft 2d Design tools V1 > V2
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Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by TDIPower » Thu 06 Apr , 2017 22:44 pm

I have no idea on G code, All I have done in the past is use design on Prodesktop export as STL and post process and machine in Denford software for milling.

Since I got the Starturn 5 I'm having to pick it up. We have just started to use Fusion at work but only for milling so far as we only have a Microrouter Pro nd a Novamill (I work in a school)

When I got the ST5 I found the LatheCAM designer very restrictive so bought Denfords Quickturn 2D design, I was told that it wouldn't work with the threading cycle but was fine with that. It's been fine for doing the drawing but there is some issue with the code working with the ST5. When it changes from a CSS command to a constant RPM the ST5 seems to ignore the new speed remove the section of the program that calls for the CSS and it works fine with the constant RPM.

My biggest issue is working out speeds and feeds, the defaults within QT2D are way out and nave nearly killed the machine!!
I would love to have some one who knows what they are doing teach me, help me understand so I can get things set up.
Last night I spent 2hrs just working in trying to part off 30mm dia. I went from 1300rpm and a feed of 80 (denfords settings) and stalling the chuck down to running the machines max 1800rpm and a feed of 8, it still sounded like it was going to destroy itself BUT did part the job off.

Dangle_kt
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon 27 Mar , 2017 9:54 am
Hardware/Software: Denford Novamill
Denford Startturn 8 with turret
Haas TM1
A big hammer
Fusion 360 CAD/CAM

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Dangle_kt » Fri 07 Apr , 2017 11:37 am

have you tried Gwizard? I use it for feeds and speeds, its a pretty good starting guide to start from.

I was running delrin at 800rpm and 100mm/min and it was working well. It will depend on your DOC and cuter size too for a parting operation.

My max RPM is 2400.

When I get chance I am going to start doing some videos and tutorials about what I've learned for people doing the same in future.

TDIPower
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Posts: 595
Joined: Tue 29 Apr , 2014 18:38 pm
Hardware/Software: Starturn 5 (sort of running, I will get this done!)
Lathe cam designer V1.11
Quickturn 2D Design
FANUC offline and online programs.
Microrouter Pro NS V5 (microstep)
VR2 and VR5
Boxford VMC260
Techsoft 2d Design tools V1 > V2
ProDesktop
Fusion 360
Deskproto

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by TDIPower » Fri 07 Apr , 2017 22:21 pm

most of my work is in steel (of unknown grade/what I can get hold of) and making wheel spacers for bike projects. Depth of cut is another thing too. Using denfords default setting for steel with a 55degree tip it did a 1.2mm depth, it managed it just, blue swarf and slowed the chuck so much.
Trying to bore a 15mm dia hole from 10mm with an 8mm bar it just bent the boring bar so it turned a tapered hole. When I use my boxford I just feel what is happening through handle and adjust the depth/feed for what feel like it can handle ill try Gwizzard and keep playing, get there in the end

Dangle_kt
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon 27 Mar , 2017 9:54 am
Hardware/Software: Denford Novamill
Denford Startturn 8 with turret
Haas TM1
A big hammer
Fusion 360 CAD/CAM

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by Dangle_kt » Mon 21 Aug , 2017 14:50 pm

So a little update for you good folks - I managed to get a tool change to work!

You will know that folk say a tool change doesn;t work as the offsets are funky - however, i discovered if you select a tool (in my example T1) and set the X and Z datum, the tool offset table is updated for that single tool, but the rest stay set to zero.

So what I did was then set the next tool (tool 5) to the SAME offset as T1, this meant that I could change tool, and then measure the relative difference in Z and X - which then meant I could manually add those values to my Z and X G00 and G01 moves when using the other tool.

You have to set Z and X datum first, and then not set them again - as they don't update the relative change on the other tools.

It's a hack, but it worked, and I was able to leave the machine running off three parts out of a single piece of stock whilst I did other stuff (after checking and double checking my code worked as expected)

Apart from some issues with stick out being WAY too long (i need a live lathe centre for my tail stock), I was able to run off about 5 bars of delrin to make the parts I needed, whilst I did other stuff.

Next, is updating the tool offset on them both, but setting tool 5 as the known difference to see if it saves me having to bodge the X/Z moves... but for now I am happy. Then saving the offsets to file, and loading them each time.... but baby steps

TDIPower
CNC Guru
CNC Guru
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue 29 Apr , 2014 18:38 pm
Hardware/Software: Starturn 5 (sort of running, I will get this done!)
Lathe cam designer V1.11
Quickturn 2D Design
FANUC offline and online programs.
Microrouter Pro NS V5 (microstep)
VR2 and VR5
Boxford VMC260
Techsoft 2d Design tools V1 > V2
ProDesktop
Fusion 360
Deskproto

Re: Starturn 8 - Axis locked at home

Post by TDIPower » Sun 04 Mar , 2018 18:51 pm

Hi, Just thought I would say I have just found a post at the Notting hackspace here https://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/wiki/Denford_Lathe

They have sorted out a denford post processor for Fusion 360! it is for the Novaturn but a start. I haven't had time to play with it yet, I only found it last night.


Pete

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