orac conversion help please

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Fri 29 Aug , 2008 11:22 am

hello i have an orac that has at some time been updated with gecko drives and a altivar 11 controler fitted the conversion is a bitt confusing as it was not a total strip out and uses some of the oracs origional wiring i would like some help with geting this machine back in working order many thanks bert

davidimurray · Post by **davidimurray** » Fri 29 Aug , 2008 11:48 am

Bert

What help do you need?

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Sat 30 Aug , 2008 11:52 am

hi ihave got a small taig mill that i purchased that had been converted by previous owner and the only thing i have had to do with it was to set up the steps to give correct cut lenght and basicly i have no experience with cnc machines or cad/cam programs so i can only use it under manual control via mach 3
i have two oracs both dont work
the first orac has a alvitar 11 vdf and a 8 station auto turret fitted
it uses parts of the origional orac power unit and has one gecko drive
and one rs biopolar drive board fitted

the second orac has two gecko drives and uses the origonal power unit to drive the spindle the spindle starts and can be manualy controled to adjust speed

both machines have break out boards fitted

both of these machines still have a lot of the origional orac wiring in them

my aim is to remove as much of the origional wiring to make things simple

it would be nice have skrew cutting

although cnc convertion looks hard it seems to me that there are only a few components that are required and i seem to have all the bitts required
butt lack the know how to wire them up

so feel that it would be better to start a fresh and have a system that i understand and can maintain

so i would like to use the origional stepper motors
and spindle motor with variable speed control via mach3
spindle speed feed back so skrew cutting is posible
use gecko 201 drivers
get the tool turet to work

i know its going to be frustrating as i am a complete novice butt am confident my goal can be achived as it is just knowing were to put the right wires and set up the correct ports and pins

any help will be most welcome
many thanks bert

davidimurray · Post by **davidimurray** » Sat 30 Aug , 2008 15:10 pm

Hi Bert

i have no experience with cnc machines or cad/cam programs so i can only use it under manual control via mach 3

Bert, you don't need CAD/CAM software to use the CNC setup. Forst thing you need to do is understand G-code and M-code - have a look through the Mach3 Manual online, but it really is very easy

Similarly if you read through the Mach manuals you will see examples of how to get things up and running.

The oracs probably have a lot of the original wiring in them as you can re-use a lot of the original system like I did -

viewtopic.php?t=452&highlight=starturn

You would be better going through your second Orac and working out what everything is and where the wiring goes, basically coming up with a wiring diagram. There are probably original Orac wiring diagrams on the forum. Once you know what you have got you can then finish it off.

Cheers

Dave

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Sat 30 Aug , 2008 16:05 pm

hi dave

thanks for your help

the guy who had converted the machines mounted the gecko drives on the old slide in circuit boards
he simply cut a line through all the copper rails and soldered in wires from the driver into the relevent slide board locations

if i have got power to the 12 to 48 volt side
and 5 volts at the common conector on the driver

would i be right in thinking all i am looking for is the step and direction signal inputs from pc tower

i assume that this should pass through the break out board as it is form of junction box

on the break out board is parelle port break out board c1

i have looked for wiring diagrams butt have not found one with only one d25 conector

if i was to look in mach 3 ports and pins i take it that is were i would find out the correct pins that will be used at the d 25 conector

is there any way of working out were the step and direct go

if i do not use the break out board and conect the step and direct wires straight into the d25 on the tower will this have any ill effects not as a permanant fixture but just to see if the stepper will move

i have looked in the back of both machines and there are some differencecs but it looks like the basic power supply system is the same

i have looked at your link pics thank you

does the speed sensor in one of the pics work as this would be a job for another time

many thanks for your help i feel more positive that i will be able to get a machine to work

kind regards bert

davidimurray · Post by **davidimurray** » Sun 31 Aug , 2008 15:39 pm

Bert

Yup, all you should need is to find the step & dir pins. These will most likely be on pins 2-9.

Removing the breakout out baord is dangerous as if you do maker a wiring mistake - you could kill the PC.

First thing is when you power the Orac up do the motors lock solid. probably the easiest way to test this is to take of the guard on the back of the cross slid and you can see the pullet. It should turn easily with the power off, turn the power on it should be very difficult to turn. That means the steppers are powered up.

Then try connecting the PC and in Mach ports and pins, disable all axis aaprt from the X then try
Step pin 1 Dir Pin 2
Step pin 2 Dir Pin 1
Step pin 2 Dir Pin 3
Step pin 3 Dir Pin 2

etc

After each change try jogging the X axis.

Try that for starters.

Cheers

Dave

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Mon 01 Sep , 2008 17:30 pm

hi dave
the machine that i have decided to do first has the spindle motor working in manual control

unfortunatly the break out board is not connected at the moment
i have foud a web site for newer c1 boards butt not for the one i have

i did stumble across a picture of the one i have butt forgot to take a note of were it was

back at work for next few days

cheers
bert

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Tue 02 Sep , 2008 9:26 am

Right, ignore the speed controller and tool changer. Lets make the carriages move first.
Is the PP on the computer an add on or attached to the motherboard? how fast is the computer? how much ram? You sure it's a PP? ie, magenta colour plastic.

You need a PP cable from computer to breakout board (BOB) check that it is straight through - pin 1 goes to pin 1 etc... numbers are in the plastic if you have a microscope.

Numbers of the relevant pin are written by each connector on the BOB.
go to config/ports & pins motor outputs in Mach3 chose a pin number (except 10 - 13 & 15 as they are inputs) for each step and a pin number for each direction output and don't forget to set the port number as 1 for everything. check on the output signals that there is nothing set to use the same pin - that won't work unless it's a different PP but since you only have one PP.....

Check in Mach3 under config/system hotkeys that X++ and X-- is set to 39 and 37.

Now with a multimeter (MM) - if your connections on your BOB don't have LEDs. Put the MM on common and the X direction pin you have set in Mach3 and now press the left arrow and then right arrow on the keyboard, if you have set the pins in Mach3 correctly you will see the reading on the MM go from 0 - 5v when you bash the arrow keys. Shows at least part of the BOB is working

doesn't work well with step as it depends how fast the step is pulsing.

Now read theGecko instructions and connect the step & dir pulse to those connections on the BOB, if you have power going to the geckos and a motor connected the motor should rotate.

Don't forget to record on paper

Up to now we have ignored any settings of acceleration under motor tuning in Mach3. And any current set resistor on the Gecko.

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Wed 03 Sep , 2008 15:27 pm

triac whizz

the bob i have is the old type as pictured in your orac heads up 2007

except it has had some extra resistos fitted by previous guy

and extra power conectors fitted in space between the power and input conectors and a three leged thing and has bolted an ally heat sink to it and conected it to a gnd conection

i think it is a regulator or a stabaliser
( i must get a book on electronic components )

i hope to start measurements tonight

i take it that by common you mean the any gnd conection on the bob

bert

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Wed 03 Sep , 2008 21:31 pm

hi

the prosesor is a amd sempron (tm)2200+ aat/at compatible 261,620 kb ram

tower unit has two pp a magenta on mother board and a blue one on a seperate card
tested pp cable all 25 pins ok on a continuity test

pluged into magenta pp and connected bob led came on butt dull tested voltage at the power terminals showed 2.1 volt dc

went into ports and pins red crossed all except x axis
set x step to pin 4 and dir to pin 5
checked to make sure pins were not in use in other sections

pushed arrow keys pin 4 showed 2 volt constant and 1.8 volt constant when opposite arrow pused again this was with single pushes tried mutiple pulses on arrow no positive reading recorded

on pin 5 i got a reading of 0-1.8 volts on single push no improvment with multiple pulses

decide to test voltage at bob conector on reverse side on soldered d25 pins tested all pins best was 2.7 volts dc

decided to plug bob and pp lead into second pp got 4.5 volt dc best reading
unsure about how to use this port did try in mack3 port 2 but did not work probably because i have to alter tower setings some how having said that maybe i should have set ports and pins to use port 2

i do have another tower unit thinking of loading mack3 into it and trying it a it has not had any cnc programs loaded into it

arm chair and tea time tommorow is another day

bert

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 8:13 am

the 'puter shouldn't be a problem then, if you get hold of more ram shove it in, Mach does like it apparently (says he running on an 800Mhz +256 ram

)

tested voltage at the power terminals showed 2.1 volt dc

? Have you connected 5v to the BOB? although the latest C1 looks different I'm sure there's a lot of features the same https://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C1R5WG.pdf
Since I can't see mine at present - is there an estop circuit on the BOB as the latest one cos without the link wire it won't work.

pushed arrow keys pin 4 showed 2 volt constant and 1.8 volt constant when opposite arrow pused again this was with single pushes tried mutiple pulses on arrow no positive reading recorded

the direction pin will (should) show 0volt one way and 5v there about the other way. step pin would give a reading whenever it was moving, i.e, above 0v

decide to test voltage at bob conector on reverse side on soldered d25 pins tested all pins best was 2.7 volts dc

some BOB's will use a lower voltage input, normally 3.5volts I think ..odd PP you have there.

decided to plug bob and pp lead into second pp got 4.5 volt dc best reading

That's better, I presume that this is a slot in card then?

unsure about how to use this port did try in mack3 port 2 but did not work probably because i have to alter tower setings some how having said that maybe i should have set ports and pins to use port 2

It's more involved than that... have a search on the Mach forum

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 15:42 pm

HI
NOT SURE ABOUT E STOP

DID NOT POWER UP THE BOARD WITH AN EXTERNAL SUPPLY

WILL LOOK TO SEE IF I CAN FIND A 5 VOLT SUPPLY

SECOND PP IS MOUNTED ON A SLOT IN CARD

BERT

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 15:52 pm

DID NOT POWER UP THE BOARD WITH AN EXTERNAL SUPPLY

that'll stop it working everytime

WILL LOOK TO SEE IF I CAN FIND A 5 VOLT SUPPLY

your pc has one - and a 12v one

psst no need to shout (CAPS)

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 16:36 pm

.......appoliges for capps

i take it that you are refering to the spare fly leads comming from the pc supply

will open up tonight and have a look with mm

i did have a problem with pc when i turned it on the screen would not display power button kept going from green to red and so i wigled some of boards inside perhaps i stiil have a duff conection this might be reason for low volt readings

regards bert

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 17:52 pm

impact maintenance - I love it :-0 especially basil fawlty style...

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Thu 04 Sep , 2008 22:29 pm

triac whizz
good news

found 12v and 5v on the only remaining two spare leads for some reason pc has two hard drives a floppy drive one cd drive and one dvd drive

powered up bob with 5v and checked port and pin settings, set pin 6 to x axis dir and pin 2 as step now got 0 and 4.89v for dir and got some strange readings for step .002v

looked through settings found that by setting home limit to 30% got better readings

set up z axis dir on pin8 and pin 7 for step and set home limit to 30% with good results

i might have to change pin 6 as it has had an extra resistor fitted
for some reason the previous guy has cut across the copper rails and bridged the gaps with resistors he has done this to pins 3-4-5-6 they are banded brown green red and gold if i have worked it out right they are 15k +- 5%

thanks for your help so far

i feel more confident now
will try to get wife to up add a photo of bob
bert

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Fri 05 Sep , 2008 19:22 pm

triac whizz
hi
i was told not to unplug stepper motors when driver power is on

is it both the 24-48v and 5 v that must not be on
will i have to put a switch on the 5 v from tower ps if so do both live and earth have to be switched and will the same apply to the 24-48v

does the step power and dir wires have to be sheilded wire with sheild conected to a spare gnd point
thanks
bert

Bert · Post by **Bert** » Sun 07 Sep , 2008 23:03 pm

triac whizz
hi with your help things are looking good having now got the grips with some basics i got the feeling it was time to connect gecko drive

butt as i was a bitt unsure i decided to have a more indepth look at what was connected and how

previous guy has mounted gecko on slide in board and i have 63 volts at gecko power input then he has mounted extra components on board to reduce voltage to5.05 volts for other power supply

this machine has a cnc4pc bob fitted and i have traced step and dir wires to find pin locations they go through an extra circuit bord that has some resistors fitted also mouted on this board is a +12 volt supply that has been reduced to 9 volts and goes to bob power supply lots of other bitts are connected for auto changer and speed sensor and as bob led will not light up i plan to make a note of were all bitts that i dont need to get axis moving and see if i can get bob to light led and thinking of conecting pc to see if axis will move

or should i transfer wires into bob that i know is working

incedently this machine has one gecko drive and one what i think is an origional 4 phase rs uni polar drive

with so much exitment i hooked out a spare 12v stepper motor from box of bitts and a spare gecko drive and conected all wires and used a 24v supply and conected 5v from bob set up port and pins and got it to move with mack3

having looked at other machine and traced step dir wire back to bob i now realise that the the four resistors is were the steppers were origionaly wired into pins 2-3-4-5
why does it require resistors between step dir wires and bob

look forward to any comments
thanks bert

Triac whizz · Post by **Triac whizz** » Mon 08 Sep , 2008 20:58 pm

previous guy has mounted gecko on slide in board and i have 63 volts at gecko power input then he has mounted extra components on board to reduce voltage to5.05 volts for other power supply

?? I don't understand what the other volts are for.. do you mean 50.5volts? why reduce???

gecko will eat up to 80 volts easily

this machine has a cnc4pc bob fitted and i have traced step and dir wires to find pin locations they go through an extra circuit bord that has some resistors fitted

f*ck the wires that are there, just run 3 wires to the gecko, 1 for step one for direction and 1 for ground.

NOW THERE COULD BE AN ISSUE.... I think that some geckos take the common as 5volts... and perhaps some old BOB's might not accomodate that..... check the documents and look on the BOB there should be a jumper to change beetween the 2, although that means you'd have to use all geckos....

...with so much exitment ...

yeah I know it's exciting the first time it works, but can you re-read & split up before you post, as I'm having to do that to understand

, though perhaps it's because I have too much french going around in my head.......

having looked at other machine and traced step dir wire back to bob i now realise that the the four resistors is were the steppers were origionaly wired into pins 2-3-4-5
why does it require resistors between step dir wires and bob

dunno it ain't gonna make the machine work is it! Soundslike somebody didn't know what they were doing.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Tue 09 Sep , 2008 8:04 am

The resistors could be used as pull ups if they all go to a star point.

Is there another wire at the other end of the resistors?

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