New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

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SimonRafferty
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New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Mon 10 Dec , 2018 9:41 am

I previously owned an Eazyturn3 - which was fantastic (post Mach3 conversion). The only thing I didn't like was no ATC.

I've now bought a Cyclone which is obviously a much more grown-up machine.
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I don't know much about it - I don't even know the model number! I'm hoping the serial number above will shed some light on it.

I need to run it on a phase converter of some sort. I need some advice on that front. I've read everything I can find on here - and the only info was that I'd need a 10Hp / 7.5kW converter - though it wasn't clear if the person suggesting this had actually done it or was suggesting based on the spec?

The rating plate says 415V at 26A (32kW?) which seems high even as a worst case startup current. I presume the VFD on the spindle can be tuned down a little to bring this into the realms of realistic budgets.

Lets assume that 'real' 3Phase is not an option, that I want to keep it original (I do like Fanuc) and money is no (less) object.
Can you recommend a phase converter whether rotary or digital that will run the machine nicely. I have 60A single phase into the building.
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.

I also have an EMCO PCMill 100 which I'd like to run from the same source, not necessarily at the same time though.

Thanks in advance,

Si
Last edited by SimonRafferty on Tue 11 Dec , 2018 13:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SimonRafferty
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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Tue 11 Dec , 2018 13:44 pm

I've just spoken to David from Drives Direct - who has quoted me £3995.00 +VAT for a digital phase converter to run the Cyclone.

Is that realistic? or was that him trying to get rid of me?

I'd appreciate any advice. I could just convert the whole thing to Mach 3 - and that's looking promising today. But it's such a nice machine with the Fanuc controller, it feels a waste to hack it up.

Si

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by TDIPower » Tue 11 Dec , 2018 20:10 pm

Have you looked in the manuals for the power specs? I have a feeling that may be missing a decimal point, and should read 2.6A what motor does it have in it? That's a beck of a lot of horses

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Tue 11 Dec , 2018 23:23 pm

Unfortunately, I don't have the manual - or much else other than the machine.

27A is possible as production mmachines have high acceleration / deceleration.

Si

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by TDIPower » Tue 11 Dec , 2018 23:59 pm

You can find some info on this part of the forum, I looked here viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3823 and saw 20amps I thought with it being 3phase it would have been lower

Pete

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Wed 12 Dec , 2018 8:25 am

Thanks Pete.

So, mine is a Cyclone P - that's a start!

The current quoted in the literature as well as on the rating plates seems random! I've seen rating plates as low as 16A and up to 29A where the literature is generally 16 to 20A.

Have any of you run one on a phase converter? If so, what size / type?

Si

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by TDIPower » Wed 12 Dec , 2018 19:46 pm

I am wondering is there any reason to keep this running 3 phase, could it not be converted to single? The control voltage is listed as 24v, lights as 110 only the motor as 415 3 phase, depending on how its wound most motors can be changed to single.

I haven't looked at the diagrams, but it might be worth a look and possibly a lot cheaper than running an inverter.

I figure it is from a time when it would have gone into service in a location with 3 phase on hand where as so much kit now is just single.

Pete

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Fri 14 Dec , 2018 17:23 pm

That's kind of the conclusion I'm coming to!

Looking at the (simplified) schematics I have:

Coolant Motor - 415v 3Ph
The spindle, spindle fan and axis drives - 220V 3Ph
Fanuc - 200v + 100v 1Ph (1.1kVA)
Control & E-Stop - 110v 1Ph (200VA)
Tool Post - 110v 1Ph (300VA)
Transformer box fan - 24v 1Ph

It's definitely possible.

However, I'm erring more towards a Mach3 / Masso conversion today.

Is there any info around on what type of Servos my machine uses - as well as encoders & limit switches?

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by Synchrocnc » Sat 22 Dec , 2018 0:48 am

Hello,

I have a Cyclone P with Fanuc 21i and use a Drives direct converter, the converter gives 16A 3 phase 400v and is housed in its own cabinet with a lot of filtering etc. I bought the inverter first and then had the rest of the conversion done with the filtering but the cost was about the same as you have been quoted. The converter has been great and allows me to run the cyclone and a small Yang mill at the same time.

I can’t see any Fanuc drives or the system in the photos, do you have any photos of them?

Cheers

Alan

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by hpe » Sun 30 Dec , 2018 11:16 am

Im in the middle of a cyclone conversion to mach3 ,and would be interested if you could tell me if you know the max rpm of the spindle on your machine.
and whether its a 2 pole or 4 pole motor and pulley ratio

mine has a 1.5kw motor on it , but i have 2 new 2.2kw motors on the shelf one 2 pole, one 4 pole which i'm considering using. my existing pulleys are more or less 1:1

I have to make a decision on the best way forward for usable maximum and minimum rpm i will need, that will be controlled via a vfd .

So it would be usefull for me to know what the rpm range and pulley ratio were on the original 2.2kw machine

regards

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Sun 30 Dec , 2018 18:28 pm

Good news - I have it running!

To make yours run, you will need a 10Hp / 7.5kW Phase converter. I used a digital converter, I don't know if it will work with a rotary, but it seems likely.

The Cyclone needs 415v to operate, but can be made to run on 230V 3 Phase (see later).

The simplest option is to buy a 415V, 10Hp converter and add a 3 Phase Choke (which cleans up the noisy output of your phase converter so it doesn't upset the CNC pixies. I bought a 7kw, 3mH 3Ph choke on eBay for £40 (used).

You will also need to increase the carrier frequency of the converter from 3khz (or whatever it's default is) to around 12 to 15kHz. This makes the choke work better - and keeps the pixies happy.

There's no need to use a 'special' CNC converter - inside the box is just a phase converter and a choke. It is not worth the £2k price difference!

A suitable 415v phase converter will cost around £1000. However, there are cheaper options!

I bought a Santerno SINUS M 10Hp Phase converter for around £500:
https://inverterdrive.com/group/AC-Inve ... 0V-Single/

It spits out 230v - but we need 415V. There are two options for this:
Find a 3Phase 220V to 415v transformer. While the phase converter needs to be 10Hp / 7.5kW to supply the high start current, the transformer doesn't need to be that big. 4kVA is plenty as the highest continuous power I've seen the lathe draw is 2.5kW. These are often found on eBay, having been stripped out of CNC Machines.

But wait a minute! Inside the transformer box, there is just such a 4.5kVA 3Phase 220V to 415v transformer - why can't I use that?!
Well, with a bit of re-wiring ans one additional contactor you can. Inside the Cyclone, it's used to supply 220V to the servo drives & spindle from the 415v input. I figured these could run off the phase converter and I could use the transformer to step up the 230V to 415v to run everything else. This does require one additional contactor:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/contactors/6851542/
The new contactor uses the output of the MDC to power it's coil and connects 230V from the phase converter to the axis & spindle drives.
Originally, I left these powered continuously (not switched at the same time as the MDC) but it confused the pixies.

I've attached the modified circuit for the transformer box.

If you have any mains filters in the transformer box, remove them! They will overheat and the smoke will escape, connected to an inverter. Te choke you have added does the same job.
Attachments
Wiring Modification.jpg
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SimonRafferty
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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Sun 30 Dec , 2018 18:32 pm

hpe wrote:
Sun 30 Dec , 2018 11:16 am
So it would be usefull for me to know what the rpm range and pulley ratio were on the original 2.2kw machine
Mine is 2.2kw and the spindle will go up to 5000rpm (at least, that's what it says, I have no way to measure, but it looks scary fast!).
Pulley ratio looks 1:1

Si

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by hpe » Sun 30 Dec , 2018 19:40 pm

SimonRafferty wrote:
Sun 30 Dec , 2018 18:32 pm
hpe wrote:
Sun 30 Dec , 2018 11:16 am
So it would be usefull for me to know what the rpm range and pulley ratio were on the original 2.2kw machine
Mine is 2.2kw and the spindle will go up to 5000rpm (at least, that's what it says, I have no way to measure, but it looks scary fast!).
Pulley ratio looks 1:1

Si
this is where i need some clarification
i presume 5000rpm is a 2 pole motor running @ 90hz as a 4 pole would have to be around 170hz

so if the machine has the 2 pole motor what would be the lowest usable rpm you will use

cheers

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Sat 02 Mar , 2019 15:08 pm

Just as a quick update, 2 Months on from getting it up and running on 230V 3 Phase - it's still running nicely!

I've pushed it quite hard a few times and it has not complained - and the magic smoke has not escaped!

£500 Inverter + £100 choke is all you need!

The 10Hp is only needed for a few seconds on startup. After that, the highest draw I've seen is about 4Hp. I'm using the same inverter to run my Emco Mill and it's happy running both at the same time.

Si

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Mon 07 Dec , 2020 12:13 pm

I've been in the process of converting my Cyclone to run Mach4.
[While I like Fanuc and the OT-B isn't the worst of them, the lathe is best suited to production work rather than small, quick jobs because of how time consuming it is entering the G-Code. I figured Mach4 would suit my needs better.]

I've also been converting it to run on single phase. I've used a small 1.5kW VFD to supply 3PH 230V into a 115V step down transformer to supply the coolant pump, fan, contactors & tool changer. However the spindle is what really takes power to run - and I found it's happy running on single phase!

You have to connect two of the 3PH 230V inputs together. Connect them to Live and the remaining phase to neutral. It's worth trying two phases only at first. Change which two out of three until the display lights up. If you run it like this, you get AL-02 (low voltage) Alarm. Try connecting the remaining phase to one then the other of the two and in one combination, it runs perfectly!

So, by separating the feed to the spindle (through a contactor), you can run the rest of the machine from a single 1.5kW VFD which is inexpensive. I tried one of the Chinese Cheap inverters, but I failed to persuade it to run up on connection to the mains. There is a parameter for this - but it didn't work on mine. Instead I bought a Delta VFD which worked as expected.

You still need a choke for the small inverter - but a much smaller one.

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Re: New Cyclone - need phase converter advice.

Post by SimonRafferty » Wed 06 Jan , 2021 14:40 pm

I've now finished the Mach4 Conversion - and it works well, including threading & Rigid Tapping.
I've used a CSMIO-IP/S which will talk directly to the OE Spindle Encoder.
2 x Allen Bradley Ultra3000 Servo Drives which will directly control the original Fanuc Red Cap Servo motors, with Step/Direction (or 10V Analogue if you want).
The Toolchanger, I think because it's old, was much simpler to control than some. It has just 4 outputs (of which only 3 are used) for the binary position of the turret, a brake (24V) input and 3Ph 115V in for the motor. I wrote a very easy toolchange macro in Mach4 which works reliably.
I think,the hardest part (other than research to find pinouts of the motor etc connectors) was that I had to make my own 3Ph 300VA 230 to 115V transformer out of 3 x single phase transformers connected together. I just couldn't find one to buy that was affordable and/or small enough.
Cyclone After.jpg
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If any of you are thinking about a similar conversion, I'm very happy to answer questions. The setup of the Ultra3000 drives is easy once you know what you're doing - and I can help with that too.
I Plasma cut the replacement control panels. The Keyboard is held in with cable ties as I had an earth-loop problem and I wanted to try isolating it & earthing separately. However it was something else, so it's now earth bonded to the chassis. I've not got around to replacing all the mounting screws yet.

It's probably the most challenging conversion I've done yet - but the end result is really good. No better than the original Fanuc in operation, but no worse and a lot more user friendly!

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