Triac with servo's

All info relating to the Denford Triac series of CNC milling machines

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funkstar
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Post by funkstar » Sat 17 May , 2008 23:19 pm

Sweet!! I like your probe, is that your doings or is it a commercial one. I am about to make one of my own and interested in your mechanical solution and what accuracy you have got from it. Also, did you use a microprocessor in it to beeing able to track switching bounces?
More that that your mashine is impressive. Very nice performance (judging from your info), and smooth operation. Cant wait to get my own converted, but still a lot of projects to finish before.

Per

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sneakym8
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Post by sneakym8 » Sun 18 May , 2008 1:03 am

hi Per
The probe was bought from Arnie, a guy who sells them on the mach3 forum at 100 us.dollars + shipping.
They seem reasonably well made for the money,I have not done any accuracy tests with it ,I have just played with it. There is no processor in the probe,the de-bounce is taken care of in the mach3 inputs where you can set a de-bounce time on the inputs so up to now i haven't seen the need to do any external filtering of the signal. The workings of the probe are very simple and follow (very roughly) the general design of the Renishaw probes although quite a bit less engineered, My comment did not intend to take anything away from Arnie's probe, for the money it is excellent value, this is the first and up to now the only time i have used it but they have some good reviews .

I have seven cnc machines in my machine shop which have to make me money every day, all of them have professional controls , including Fanuc,Fagor,Heidenhain,Yasnac,Accurite
So i probably have as good an idea as anyone as to what is and what isn't acceptable performance, I think i am very happy with the performance of the Mach3/Rutex/Triac up to now. I think if you were to follow a similar format when you start your retrofit, you would be very happy.

I used the rutex drives mainly because of them being able to accept differential encoder inputs, and the following error is programmable, if I had used gecko's the acceleration ramp would have been about three times as long for the same 6m/min fast travis because the following error is fixed on gecko's

I know what you mean about projects needing finishing i have a shed load of them.

I will try to keep you informed of any other developments, the control pendant next and then the fourth axis i think.

It is very hard to keep focus on a project when the sun starts to shine and i can get my motorcycle out for a run.

I look forward to you starting your conversion and hope you keep me informed of your progress, I am enjoying the interest you are showing in my project.
"thank you"

I think if you follow the links below it will explain the workings of the probe somewhere.

This is a couple of links to Arnie's probe on the mach3 forum.

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index. ... 600.0.html
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index. ... 004.0.html

Col

P.S. Sorry about the long post

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Post by niftylittlebleeder » Wed 11 Jun , 2008 23:30 pm

Hi Col,

I've been looking at your Triac conversion with great interest - the rapids are just awesome!

I've just bought a Traic with ATC from the US and looking to convert to sevo's. I've no previous servo experience - but have converted a Boxford 250 lathe to EaziCNC system with chinese stepper drivers and Pac Sci steppers. Got around 4.8 m/min finally after much experimentation and a lot of outlay.

I wouldn't mind short circuiting this process for converting the Triac as I havn't got the 6 months to spare that I spent on the lathe - though I did manage to add driven tooling and C axis - so result was worth it.

Would you mind giving some info and pointers on your set up to save me wasted hardware / time pls?

I'm thinking using the same Rutex drives - R2010 if using brush motors. Which size / make motors did you use on each axis ? (love the tensioning system by the way!)
You used HP 512 count encoders. I may use US Digital - cheap and I have 500 count ones already, is 500 count ok, are enclosed encoders better?
Bob Campbell breakout board - was it the combo board?
Can you connect the homing switches to it, did you use limit switches as well?
How did you get the Campbell board to run the spindle.

You said why you didn't use the Gecko's drives but could the GRex controller have been used, why I ask is that I'm going to link up the ATC and probably have to use a ModIO PLC - maybe Homann but need to work out if the Campbell board or GRex will integrate with this better.

I also want a 4th axis at a later stage and the Rutex system allows for a 4th drive in there, but may struggle if I need to replace the ATC motor. The Homann ModIO may cope with this though and run the original ATC stepper via it's existing driver -
not sure what it is yet as I havn't received the mill yet! should arrive air freight next week - I'm trying to plan out the project before-hand and get the bits before it arrives.

Sorry to flood you with questions but I don't think anyone elses set up matches closer than yours!

Brilliant job though - wish I'd used servos on my lathe conversion 2 years ago - would have saved me 1000 hours! I went through loads of stepper drivers, motors (want some spares!) pulley ratios, powers supplies etc. to get to the end result and would have probably done it a lot cleaner with the set up you have achieved - nice one!

I like the touchscreen Mach3 CNC monitor box from Machmotion.com - £700 but would make a nice addition to control system!

Many thanks,

John

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Post by sneakym8 » Thu 12 Jun , 2008 19:52 pm

Would you mind giving some info and pointers on your set up to save me wasted hardware / time pls?

Not at all
Q:-
I'm thinking using the same Rutex drives - R2010 if using brush motors. Which size / make motors did you use on each axis ? (love the tensioning system by the way!)

A:-
I got some Electrocraft E240 motors off Ebay which already had encoders on them i think the 240 refers to ounces . These motors come up on Ebay regular, sometimes in Germany , i got mine in the uk for £21 each , i had to machine covers for the encoders.

Q:-
You used HP 512 count encoders. I may use US Digital - cheap and I have 500 count ones already, is 500 count ok, are enclosed encoders better?

A:- enclosed encoders will probably last longer but you could protect them with some sort of casing. 500 counts would be fine i got 4 micron resolution with 512 counts and i have not read the encoder in quadrature which is another little bonus of using rutex drives .you can get far better resolution if you read them in quadrature but its a trade off for fast travis speed.

Q:-
Bob Campbell breakout board - was it the combo board?
Can you connect the homing switches to it, did you use limit switches as well?
How did you get the Campbell board to run the spindle.

A:-
Yes, version 5
Yes i connected home switches to it, and i used limit switches to e-stop mach3 through the bob campbell board and also e-stop the rutex drives using a relay in the e-stop circuit.

The Campbell board has a 0-10v analogue out and two configurable relays to control a V.F.D. (Inverter drive)

Q:-
You said why you didn't use the Gecko's drives but could the GRex controller have been used, why I ask is that I'm going to link up the ATC and probably have to use a ModIO PLC - maybe Homann but need to work out if the Campbell board or GRex will integrate with this better.

A:- The Grex controller could be used in place of the Bob Campbell board and you would get a lot more functions,i/o's etc. for your toolchanger.
the Grex has step and dir. out , and you will still need to attach your choice of drives to the Grex .

Q:-
I also want a 4th axis at a later stage and the Rutex system allows for a 4th drive in there, but may struggle if I need to replace the ATC motor. The Homann ModIO may cope with this though and run the original ATC stepper via it's existing driver -
not sure what it is yet as I havn't received the mill yet! should arrive air freight next week - I'm trying to plan out the project before-hand and get the bits before it arrives.

A:-
I built a toolchanger for a full size machine that has run in my workshop for about seven years. I used a picservo dc drive from J.R.Kerr automation(http://www.jrkerr.com/boards.html) and a simple sequencer board from the same, i think they intergrated the simple sequencer into the drive at a later date but you could ask them if it was of interest.
I just sent ascii characters to the simple sequencer from a plc to do the position of the carousel and an air system to do the up,down,in,out also controlled from the plc. works really well and the picservo was very reasonably priced.

Sorry to flood you with questions but I don't think anyone elses set up matches closer than yours!

Not a problem at all i only hope my ramblings make sense . If i can be of any help at all or i have missed something please just message me or leave a post, i've been a bit hit and miss with the internet lately but i am usually more regular, sorry for the delayed reply.

Regards col

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Post by niftylittlebleeder » Thu 12 Jun , 2008 20:58 pm

Thanks for the quick reply Col,

Before I sink into cnc conversion bliss for the next 3 weeks can you tell me about the VFD spindle control. Is it the standard Triac spindle drive system or an add-on system - if so, what type.
Do the 2 relays give fwd/rev and therefore is there a delay between reversing - how is it achieved.

You mentioned filters - what are these and where were they used.

Thanks for the tip on the ATC control, I've had some pic chip experience and should be able to cope with ASCII communication to the changer control. I bet that was quite some conversion you did to add the ATC - sounds fab!
Littlemachineshop does an 8 tool changer for small mills, I had thought of adding this to a standard Triac but decided to go for the ATC Denford designed - can't beat Brit engineering!

And finally...the power supply for the drives - is this the standard Triac one - is it 56v?
What about the Triac standard spindle drive power supply - is this standard?

Much appreciated and keep up the great work - I still think you've achieved an awesome conversion here!
What service does your company provide?
We machine brass valves - use a Nakamura TMC15 by day with driven tools. Spare cqpacity at the moment if you need a long run on a part!

John

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Post by niftylittlebleeder » Thu 12 Jun , 2008 22:46 pm

...also, I've looked arund for the Electro Craft E240 motors without success - seems like Electro Craft may have discontinued, is there an alternative readily available that you have come across?
Are these approximately nema 23 frame size?

John

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Post by sneakym8 » Thu 12 Jun , 2008 23:26 pm

Hi John
The spindle drive is an Automation Direct GS2, there are loads of ways to control this drive, i have used direction and 0-10v analogue signal for the speed , the drive can be controlled by a serial (rs232) input or a Lan conection so its quite versatile.
There are a couple of ways to configure the relays on the campbell board and the GS2 drive is programable to use any combination too.
The drive must get to 0 rpm and stop before it will reverse , i I think this is common for most inverter drives, the time it takes to go from forward to reverse depends on how quickly you can stop the spindle without giving the drive too much grief and blowing it up, I fitted a braking resistor to mine and with the small amount of mass in the spindle it stops pretty dam quick(probably about 2 seconds from 3000 rpm) I will do some test runs and get some accurate info on this.

The filters are mains noise filters :-
one on the axis power supply's 240v input to stop the pwm noise from the rutex drives getting back onto the mains although i never had a problem before fitting this filter I did think it was a good idea.

One on the 240v input of the spindle drive, needed this one big style, strange things started to happen to the axes when i started the spindle without a filter, so i fitted the filter and also reduced the frequency from 12k to 4k, which the drives pwm was being carried on. This is a trade off between noise and heat generated in the motor (low frequency=less noise=more heat in the motor) I also increased the debounce on the inputs of mach3 at this time and i had no more problems.

The power supply for the drives is a denford one but not from the triac and yes it is 56v but the origional one from the triac was 35 ish volts i'm not sure if this one was from an orac, I got it with some denford(parker)cd20 stepper drives off Ebay.
I reckon if i got a 70v supply i could get about 7m/min, this would be all the motors could take.

All the original denford electrics were either missing or junked when i got the machine.

Have you seen what i did for the counter balance for the z axis my machine is later in the post with the gas strut.
viewtopic.php?t=1352&highlight=

if you think i can help at all, just keep asking.

Where are you based.

our web site is not as up to date as it should be but you will get the idea.

http://www.colinwise.com

kind regards col.
Last edited by sneakym8 on Fri 13 Jun , 2008 23:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sneakym8
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Post by sneakym8 » Fri 13 Jun , 2008 20:59 pm

Hi

I did some tests with the spindle today and i was not wrong,
0 - 3000rpm in 2 seconds,

3000rpm - 0 in 2 seconds ,

3000rpm forward to 3000 rpm reverse in 4 seconds.

This is still using the original triac spindle motor.

Not bad i think.

col

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Post by niftylittlebleeder » Fri 13 Jun , 2008 23:09 pm

That's really quick - I'm not used to these acceleration speeds as I deal with lathes and hefty chucks!

I'm ordering components now. I couldn't get the E240 motors from Rory but found a link to a guy in Holland with 20 - 30 of them left so trying to get them from him.

I've decided on the Bob Campbell board over the Grex as the BC board has relays on board - and we know it fits as you've successfully integrated it.
I've had to email Bob as I'm wondering if he may be upset with the $8.50 postage cost to Europe - whereas via UPS it's more like $80 from Texas!

Am going for the Homann ModIO as it can run from the serial port and the word address programming seems similar to that I have programmed for pic chips. The Grex looked also programmable and could have driven the ATC from this also - but doubtful about whether I would need to add another breakout board for relays to reverse motor - could be wrong - I usually am!

No wonder these projects take so long - motors from Holland, boards from US and Australia -- don't we make anything in the UK anymore!
Actually the Denford is Great Brit - so perhaps we do!

I'm off to track down gas struts and a 70v power supply - by the way what amp rating was your power supply?

Cheers,
John

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Post by sneakym8 » Fri 13 Jun , 2008 23:56 pm

Hi

I got some nice struts off Ebay they were stainless steel and adjustable .

the power supply i used was off the cd20 steppers and to be honest i am not sure of its output capability, it looks quite large and very heavy, if i had to guess i would say about 15 amps.

The E240 motors pull about 4 amps when accelerating the axis to fast travis which takes about a half a second , when they are up to speed about 1 amp. The transformer never shows any sign of getting hot, not even warm. I would say a 15 amp supply would be ample you may even get away with a 10 amp one as you will never run all the motors at full load and never even run one motor at full load for more than a couple of seconds.
I think a rule of thumb is a supply that is capable of driving one motor at full load continuous should drive all 3/4 motors intermittent, a power supply is capable of supplying many times its rated current for short bursts as long as it has time at cool at a lower current which is typical of the way a cnc needs power.
I'm sure i have read this somewhere.

it may be here in this document.
http://www.colinwise.com/Mystique2.pdf

This rutex pdf is a good read on matching motors , power supply's and drives and its fairly strait forward too.



regards col

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Post by Steve » Sat 14 Jun , 2008 3:10 am

Is the power supply a PM1200?

This would run 3 x 5A drives if it is.

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Post by sneakym8 » Mon 16 Jun , 2008 10:35 am

The type no. for the transformer is 8T788.

When you say 3, 5 amp drives do you mean stepper drives and motors

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Post by Steve » Mon 16 Jun , 2008 15:17 pm

Yes you said you had CD 20 drives. These are rack mounted and very oftern had a rack mounted PSU with them.

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Post by sneakym8 » Mon 16 Jun , 2008 17:24 pm

The Transformer was off the cd20 drives so it could be what you say, i can't get in to see the spec. very well because of the position of the transformer.

The difference with stepper drives is they pull max. amps at standstill so the power supply has to be rated continuous at what ever amps, so if the transformer is good for 3 stepper motors at 5 amps it must be rated at least 15 amps continuous. Which should run 4 dc servo's with no problem.

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Re: Triac with servo's

Post by Rgvbaz » Sun 25 Feb , 2018 19:58 pm

Bump for me :0)

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Re: Triac with servo's

Post by Rgvbaz » Sat 03 Mar , 2018 17:47 pm

Hi Colin,


I do have a question if you don't mind answering?

Earlier in this thread there is a picture of the control box and there is a earth free (as in not connected to anything in the control box) from the Y servo - it is also free at the servo too. When I got the machine it had been connected to the servo mounting plate. I believe this isn't necessary as A - the other end of the earth isn't connected to earth and B - the motor body itself is connected to the machine so earthed through that anyway.

Electrickery isn't my strong point so just wanted to double check. I'm assuming all is good as the machine moved before I bought it but tripped on the Z and X when moved for a while which I think was mechanical more than anything (X ball screw very stiff and Z jib moving and jamming) - both are I think sorted now so hopefully I will get the machine up and running this weekend when it's all back together... about 10 years since it was converted :)


A few pics:

Loose earth - control box:
Control - finger earth.jpg
Control - finger earth.jpg (1.19 MiB) Viewed 695 times
At the servo:
X servo.jpg
X servo.jpg (1.13 MiB) Viewed 695 times
Triac today:
Triac today.jpg
Triac today.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 695 times
Without my finger:
Control box.jpg
Control box.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 695 times

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Re: Triac with servo's

Post by Rgvbaz » Sun 04 Mar , 2018 20:04 pm

Got everything sorted and back together...

Fired her up and she moves and everything. Next step is to sort the limit switches and cut some metal :)

Did a short video of her running:

https://youtu.be/XZSdnK7kzW0

Cheers

Dave

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