Micro Router 2nd Hand

[Chucky5516]

Hi Guys,

Me again....First of all I hope you and your respective families are safe and well during this horrible time. I also hope you all (belatedly) had a fantastic Christmas and a happy and healthy new year.....Now for the stuff...I am here now to discuss two things (issues).

1st Issue is, (read through my previous posts for what I mean), the ongoing issue I was having in the Summer with the machine randomly disconnecting and dropping out with the device driver failed etc, has completely disappeared in the Autumn/Winter???? I have done machining for 5 hours straight and not had a single issue. Although this is a positive, does this perhaps highlight what the issue was in the Summer? eg; overheating of something??? I don't know, but just curious why this would be, as I don't want it to reoccur in the Summer as my business relies on it, until I can afford a new machine.

2nd issue is, the software telling me the 'guard is open', when it's not. This is getting progressively worse and more annoying. Today it has halted my work completely. I get that the emergency lock maybe needs replacing but, when I do get it to register, it's then fine continuously until the next hiccup. It seems very temperamental. Although the best course of action would be to replace the 'door guard' or whatever they call it, this would cost around £150 which I don't have right now. Is there a way to disable it, either in the software or manually through the electronics?? I don't necessarily need this as I am not a college or school, and don't need the over the top safety mechanism. I will have to replace it eventually as one day I want to sell the machine.

It's so annoying as these are the only two issues in what is an otherwise superb (for the money paid) machine. Also, any ideas on what to use as a dust boot\shoe? I have a connection to my dust vac, but need a better seal closer to the cutter to collect everything more efficiently. It gets tedious having to do a massive clean after every job, or cleaning as you go, especially with long jobs.

PS When you set the cutter\tool offset for each job (even if its the same part\size), why does the number keep increasing? If the wood size and the part size are the same, why do I have to constantly set the tool offset for every job. This is especially annoying when cutting numerous parts exactly the same, out of timber exactly the same thickness. I have to set the tool offset for EVERY job, otherwise it will just make a mess of the workpiece. It just seems strange. Also the number for the tool offset increases every time I set it, to the point its now at 2,000+mm which makes no sense?? It doesn't effect anything because the work offsets compensate for this number but it just seems strange and makes repeatability more hassle than it should be.

[TDIPower]

you can electrically bypass the switch. You need to look at the wiring diagram and then either do it at the switch or where the wires go to the board. Just remember though If you do that whenever you go to move the machine with the door open it will move at the normal pace and NOT the slowed pace it drops to. It's a bit risky although when I was running al large job I removed the door catch can plugged it into the switch on the machine. This meant i could open the door while it was machining and clean round. All well and good until I came to zero on the next job and it moved at 5m a min! SO if you were to bypass the switch I would add an external and idiot note!

You need to have a search on the net for router guards/brushes. Lots about off the shelf or go to Screw fix/ tool station and get some of the 75mm long brush guards for doors.

Now for the offsets. In what axis is the problem? all of them one of them, two of them?
After you have run the job, go back to the machine homing page and home each axis in turn. See if you get a grinding noise when it hits zero or if one seems to go to a negative number. That would indicate you are missing steps during your run.

This could be due to trying to cut to much at once (depth or pass overlap) or to fast a travel or binding lead screws, guides etc. SO the steppers are given the pulses to step BUT it might stall on one step.

Another reason could be the cutter either going inside to pulling out of the collet. If you are using router bits and doing a slot cut with a plunge into the material rather from an outside edge you can be forcing the cutter into the collet (Are your cutters suitable for plunge cuts and have a cutting face that goes to the center axis. Normal router bits do not). Depending on if you are up or down milling the cutter can be pulled out of the collet.

Pete

[Chucky5516]

Thank you so much for your quick response. The guard lock is really playing up today!!!! I have had a look on ebay and found a few 'Allen Bradley Guardmaster's' 2nd hand at a good price. I will have to check, but they look similar to mine. Are they easy to fit??
The problem with the offset seems to be the depth, so the z axis I'd imagine? I am using endmills bought from 'WorkBee' which are a CNC company online. I have a range of endmills from Ball-nose to V-bits at 60 and 30 degrees, to a 1/4" upcutting bit. I don't think it's forcing the bit up into the collet, though I have had the bit come out after working loose once, which was strange as I definitely tightened it before starting.
I get a slight grinding and negative number on all axis when homing, I think. I thought it was just hitting the homing switch then going back to its zero position, rather than missing steps as it is only slight. The only time I have a problem with stalling is, (not sure which axis, x or y?? If you are looking at the machine, then the axis that travels from left to right) Near the end of its travel, at 520mm to 550mm, at high speeds during jogging, or sometimes when cutting it can stall and miss steps. I got round this by reducing feed rate or jogging speed, but its not ideal. I have tried looking at the triangular nuts and cleaning them out and also clean it regularly and use machine silicone lubricant regularly, so not sure what else to do here??

[Chucky5516]

PS Here is a link to the 1/4" straight cutter I use for most of my pocket and profile cuts.

https://ooznest.co.uk/product/solid-car ... 2flute-up/

[TDIPower]

Cutter looks fine, as long as you have at least one cutting surface that goes to the centre axis.



I can't help anymore on the door lock/switch as I haven't had to strip one yet, so you are on your own with that. Although if you slide your machine so the front is just off the bench you should be able to see it by looking up under the base. For personal use at the price you are taking about I would be finding an alternative way of doing it. Just a thought, is the black plastic bung missing off the top of the door lock/switch? If so I'll bet it is full of crap. Taking it off and a good blow out with an air line might sort you out.

OK now onto the missing steps.
Left Right is X
Front Back is Y
Up Down is Z.

When you fire the machine up home each axis individually and monitor/note what is happening. Good habit is Home Z first just in case there is something in the machine a cutter could catch on. then X or Y.
When you home the axis the moving part do the following.
Z climb to the top of travel, touch the limit switch and then slowly wind down unit it releases the switch
X should travel right, touch the limit switch and then slowly wind left unit it releases the switch
Y should travel to the back, touch the limit switch and then slowly move forward unit it releases the switch

Now change to the jog screen, set your speed to 4000.
Send X all the way to the left it should make the same sound all along it's run until it stops silently. If it makes a 'buzz' sort of noise at any point of points along that movement it will have lost steps. Normally when it gets over to the left hand side.
Send the X all the way back to the right, if it 'crashes' in to the stop and 'buzzes' it defiantly lost steps so didn't know it was as close to the right as it was.

Do the same for Y front to back and Z down and up.

Do the process a few times to confirm this is the case.

I seem to remember you said you had issues with the movement and I went through cleaning things then. Not knowing how much use the machine gets hrs wise how often are you cleaning out the nuts and using silicone spray on the feed screws? If you have done quite a bit then it could just be time to clean things out again OR if you haven't been using Silicone spray lube you need to. Its best if you clean down at the end of the day, spray the screws and the rails leave for a few mins then send everything to the opposite end of travel, do it again, wait 5 and then send it back and forth on all axis at full speed. If you are using less than daily maybe do it once a week, but when you start to have binding issues, time for a clean out of the nuts again.

Pete

[Chucky5516]

Had a quick look and took the lock off but it doesn't look too dirty at all. I keep thinking I might need to replace the lock but then when I press the 'emergency stop' button the lock activates, which makes me think the lock is fine, just something wrong with the signals being sent, as on VR milling it keeps saying 'Guard Open'.
I have had this problem before but it usually goes away after a bit of messing around, but this doesn't seem to want to play, which is typical as I have a load of jobs that need doing!!! Aaaargghhh!!!!
When I can sort this I can look at the other things that were kindly suggested. Any help on this lock issue would be greatly, greatly (and yes I did say it twice!!) appreciated.

[Chucky5516]

Could you explain in more detail how to bypass the switch? I know I need the diagram, which I think I have, but what would I need to do\be looking for?
Thank you so much for your prompt responses, and help.

[Chucky5516]

Now....things have got even stranger.

Left the machine on for an hour or two, went back into the workshop and all of a sudden the guard lock is working????? Could it be the temperatures we are having right now? My workshop isn't heated....

So....started happily machining away, cut a few pieces I needed all cutting fine and happily, set up the fourth piece, went to run the machine and...........the spindle isn't working??????????? I have unplugged it, checked the switch on the spindle, plugged it back in but still nothing????? Honestly, this machine seems to be taking the proverbial p*ss out of me!!!!

Help!!!!!!!!!

[Martin]

Have you checked the spindle motor brushes?

[Chucky5516]

No, how do I do that? My dad just pointed out there is some dark black marks on the vents of the motor.

[Chucky5516]

PS The guard open thing has come back, I'm pulling my hair out here!

[Martin]

Which motor do you have?

[TDIPower]

You need to stop. Step back and focus on one thing at a time.

The only way you are going to get to the bottom of this is by taking a logical approach. If you are reliant on this for work then you need to set aside some decent down time to work through it.

You have the Kress motor rather than the porter cable. I have no idea on the Kress motor, HOWEVER a quick google and I was able to find a youtube on how to replace brushes but you would need to search that for your motor, should be a product label on it. SO you just need to google how to inspect/replace the brushes on it.

Door Open issue.
You say you have taken the lock off and 'it doesn't look that dirty' what about inside are you able to see inside the switch that is inside the lock and see for sure that it is not full of sawdust? But the lock works, yes that is an electro magnet NOT the switch! just because it is inside the same lump of plastic doesn't mean to say the switch isn't gunked up to hell. It doesn't take much to stop 2 electrical contacts closing (this is where a 'bug in the system' comes from, It was a moth stuck in a relay so it couldn't make contact in a early computer)
I have no Idea on the wiring for your machine, it has been upgraded and is newer than anything I have explored. If you are not confident following a schematic diagram, tracing electronic/electric faults have access to a meter to test things It's a rabbit hole that could be dangerous and costly if you don't know what you are doing. In simple terms I would imagine there will be 2 or 4 wires going to the door switch (then 2 for the lock), when the door is shut they will make contact through the switch. Those wires will go back to the control board. I know Denford mark everything up in the panels so it should be possible to trace it through against the diagram.
A quick proof of issue would be to remove the wires at the control board that go to the switch and put a short loop in to replace them. As I say if you don't know what you are doing this could be a risky thing to do AND I have not seen the diagram for your machine so can't check it myself. If you were to try that it would be at your own risk.

I have a strong feeling from all the posts you have made that the machine is in need of a full service and inspection. They never get the care required in a normal school, they get sold off when they don't work properly. Trust me I know what I am doing and have had to train my technician on this and it is not a job any of us enjoy and the proper clean down after each job is a PITA so there is a trade off run the machine till it fails or, do OK clean ups, Lube the runs, inspect the brushes and when it starts to miss behave it's down time and a proper clean up again. Most schools do not have the experience in staff to be able to do this. So I very much doubt yours will ever have especially as you have said you have had stalling issues and rather than stripping and cleaning it all properly you slowed the feed speed. You have taken on this machine, you need to get to know it if you want to use it. Take that time to go through it properly.

On another note, you have expressed your frustration with the machine and posted up many issues YET when we have posted responses to try and help you rather than working through each point and noting what happens and responding to those points in a logical way so we can try and help further you try to continue with what you are doing and then post up more issues.

I will say it again. STOP, Step back and focus on one thing at a time. work through all the advice that has been put up.

Pete

[Chucky5516]

I have taken your advice, taken a step back and am working on the problems one by one:

1. The spindle. Replaced the brushes, and it works fine.

2. The guard switch saying 'guard open' constantly. I have opened the switch checked it thoroughly and it was clean. Re tightened all connections and checked for damage to wires. Still nothing. I then bought a 'good working condition' second hand replacement switch which arrived today with a new actuator. Re-wired this the same way as the old one, and still the same problem.

Does anyone have any advice on the switch problem? Could it be a fuse? I think its highly unlikely that two switches have the exact same problem, but knowing my luck that could be possible. The power is coming onto the switch and the magnetic door lock under 'Emergency lock' and when turning on\off the machine works. I don't know what else to check. The black box and control card, but don't know what I am looking for, bar research I have done online?

After this the only issue I have is the slight stalling on the x axis at the far limits of the machine. That will be my next job.

Any help would be most appreciated.

[TDIPower]

The only suggestion on the switch is to go through the wiring diagram. Follow it back to the control board/s work out if the switch should be be open or closed when the door is shut and you want to use the machine. Once you know that and know where on the control board then remove the wires from the control board and put a direct link in as re required to the board. If that works it proves there is a problem between the control board and the switch (so the wires, switch etc). If it doesn't then to me it's point at a control board issue.

You need to test that out to prove the situation then you can plan next steps.

Pete

[Agors]

Let me start with, I have not read all the pages;
Why don’t you bypass the switch?
Can you post a picture of the diagramS where there is the problematic switch so I can have a look?

I had a similar problem with an axis not going fully through.

It you move the axis in a position where it goes left and right, are you able to stop it when moving?
Cause I had a similar issue and was a problem with the driver. Do you have the original stepper driver?

[Chucky5516]

Here are pictures of the inside of my machine and the wiring. I have all the schematics, but they are from when the machine was manufactured and are dated 2000\2001, on the old 'DenStep' controller. Since then it has been upgraded to 'NextStep' so not sure how relevant, useful these diagrams are now. If anyone has any schematics or electrical diagrams for the NextStep card, and any info on my setup would be great.

[TDIPower]

You need to download the correct diagrams so you can trace your fault through. Look in the section for you machine.

viewforum.php?f=37

Pete

[Chucky5516]

I have an electrician coming tomorrow. It looks like Version 5 if I'm correct? It's very difficult to tell as it was upgraded from it's original control card.

[Agors]

The board connection are similar to v5, but is not v5.
You don’t have a timer or separated driver for the motors.

On your board, in TB9 (bottom, third group from left), you have 3 cables, should be numbered 78 77 and the third is ground.
That’s guard contact 1.

Have a look.
I removed it from my Bob.

The other guard contact pin is on the top of the break out board, group TB3, visible in the pic you posted and numbered 84 , this one if you open the door the spindle will stop spinning since is the relay enabler.
Pin 84 goes to the switch and then into cable83 that enter the blue relay in your cabinet. If you want to bypass the contact guard switch (to enable the spindle even if door is open), you can disconnect pin 84 from the Bob and connect a cable that enter directly in the blue relay (remove cable 83). It should be -24v.

Please note these are my advise but you do this at your risk.

Have a look at MY bodged diagram in pic and look at pin 77, 78, 83 and 84

Are you able to stop the x axis motor by hand?