triac atc

All info relating to the Denford Triac series of CNC milling machines

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oblio1612
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triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 16:17 pm

Hi new to the forum. I have a model trial atc mill serial # eo 3754 made1990. I have the machine all hooked up to pmdx and running on mach 3. My question is about spindle motor. there are 5 wires out of the seimenz motor (sp) one is ground 2 go to the brushes and 2 I believe are to the field. I am running motor off of kbic board. is this motor wound in series ? right now I have the 2 brushes wired in and ground but when I run the motor I can stop it with my hand.
so right now as it stands.
a=ground
b= first brush
c= second brush
d= first field
e= second field

current wiring a in b in c in
should I instead wire a in b in c to d and e in ?
or is there some other way denford controlled this ? please help thanks in advance JB....

moray
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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 18:07 pm

I'm sure somebody more familiar with all the variations will comment, but I'm pretty sure Denford only ever used induction motors (very early machines), or Permanent Magnet DC motors (typically SEM).
The latter, two wires are for power, and two for the tacho output, along with the GND wire.

oblio1612
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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 18:25 pm

The tacho wires are separate from the 5 wires out of the motor proper. the tacho is attached to the top and has 3 leads out. i will get to them at some point. Right now the motor spindle can be stopped by hand not good.

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Re: triac atc

Post by Martin » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 18:34 pm

Do you know if the seimens motor was fitted from new? I don't remember us ever fitting them!

We used Lenze, S.E.M from memory.

oblio1612
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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 19:02 pm

sorry yes thats the motor. tach on top and a proximity on spindle i asume for the atc ref.

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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 19:15 pm

I've just had a quick scan through the photos on my phone, and here's a photo of the original SEM motor that was fitted to mine - https://www.flickr.com/photos/mc_mtb/36 ... 158270440/

If yours is the same, A's are power, and T's and K's are Tacho and Thermal cutout (I can't remember what one is what without digging out the relevant wiring diagram). The thermal cutout should control the E-stop circuit.

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 19:31 pm

mine pretty much same machine. i don't have same connection block but the problem is the motor is weak no guts is that a over all problem or have i missed something in wiring up the motor. I see your putting in new motor leads me to believe motor on original was not so great?

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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 20:11 pm

I think you've not wired the motor correctly. What happens if you only connect the two thickest wires to the KBIC?

The main reason I fitted a new motor, was the original one was stuttering at higher speeds, and causing the main RCD in the workshop to trip. Rather than spend money trying a new drive and then possibly find out it was a faulty motor, I decided to upgrade to a 1.25Kw AC servo. It means I also get the added benefit of being able to tap.

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 20:22 pm

ok so the two wire that go to the brushes on the motor are hooked up to to a+ and a- on kibc board along with ground. I'm I missing something. still have two wires coming out from the motor.

moray
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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 20:35 pm

Thermal cut-out wires?

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Re: triac atc

Post by Lone_Ranger » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 20:43 pm

oblio1612 wrote:sorry yes thats the motor. tach on top and a proximity on spindle i asume for the atc ref.
From what I know of the Triac machines I have to agree with "moray", I don`t know of any Triacs with Seimens Spindle motors, all the ones I have ever seen have had Lenze or SEM brushed DC motor as "Martin" has mentioned.

As far as I am aware there never was any spindle orientation for the ATC, reason was there were no "pegs" on the spindle for the slots in the BT30 or BT35 toolholders so no orientation required, the sensor in the head next to the spindle was/is for speed checking/feedback to the control as there was never an encoder on the spindle motor to my knowledge.

As for the lack of power at the spindle have you checked the output from the drive unit, if that is OK then as "moray" suggests you may have it wired up incorrectly.
It is possible the motor has field coils instead of permanent magnets which will require a current being fed to them, if that magnetic field isn`t there then there will be little or no torque at the spindle.

Do some research for the exact specification of the motor and drive :)

All the above may well be superflous

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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 20:56 pm

IIRC early triacs did have spindle orientation, along with drive dogs for the toolholder, however they were dropped from later models to simplify the design, as they weren't really needed due to the motor not being able to produce enough torque to overcome the self locking taper.
Some did also have spindle speed sensors, but they were mounted down near the pulleys.

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 21:20 pm

ok I guess I'm looking for the field wires. there is little to no torque on spindle. I ve checked the out put on kibc and it goes to 180 v dc. I believe the two smaller wires out of the motor proper is for thermal trip as the are smaller gauge wires and have read that somewhere too. I have the lenze spindle drive manual which i have gone thru ( think I found it here) it mentions a field current just not sure which wires they are?

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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 21:39 pm

If they are field wires, then you'll need to connect them to the field output from the KBIC.

Which if the wires weren't connected before, makes me suspect they're not really field wires.

Are there any model numbers on the motor?

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 21:43 pm

I'm at work will get that when home

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Re: triac atc

Post by DavidB » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 22:05 pm

Moray,

Tripping of the RCD may not be a fault in the equipment but a fault in the RCD. I had an issue with my TIG welder where when I turned it on it tripped the RCD when it hadn't before and the TIG welder tested perfect so I called in an electrician I knew and he tested the RCD and found it faulty and replaced it and no more problems. He mentioned that RCDs should be tested every 3 or 6 months to exercise them or they may go bad over time. By exercise them I mean using the test button to test their trip function.

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Re: triac atc

Post by moray » Tue 19 Sep , 2017 23:00 pm

DavidB wrote:Moray,

Tripping of the RCD may not be a fault in the equipment but a fault in the RCD. I had an issue with my TIG welder where when I turned it on it tripped the RCD when it hadn't before and the TIG welder tested perfect so I called in an electrician I knew and he tested the RCD and found it faulty and replaced it and no more problems. He mentioned that RCDs should be tested every 3 or 6 months to exercise them or they may go bad over time. By exercise them I mean using the test button to test their trip function.
It wasn't the RCD, as the same RCD feeds various other bits of machinery, including my cyclone.
A common failure mode for SCR type drives, is the SCRs start to go short circuit under load. This leads to a random intermittent short circuit, which can either blow fuses, trip circuit breakers and/or trip RCDs. It also causes the motor to 'stutter'. A faulty motor can also cause a similar problem.
I had the same problem with my old Conect lathe when I first bought it, and a new KBIC drive fixed it.

I had been considering an upgrade anyway, to get some more power and the possibility to do rigid taping, so after doing lots of measuring, and drawing things up in Fusion360 to make sure my idea would work, I bit the bullet and ordered the parts.

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Wed 20 Sep , 2017 0:04 am

ok so looked at motor plate its a lenze
mot PM type 43.610.33.0.2.6 feld PM anker 180.
Im going to assume the PM stands for permanent magnet other than that not sure . it runs fine but no torque. theres a thalhiem d 3440 encoder mounted on top other than that it looks like the two smaller wires out of motor proper are for a thermal trip. not sure what to do.... thanks JB

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Re: triac atc

Post by DavidB » Wed 20 Sep , 2017 12:06 pm

Moray,

The RCD fed the entire house and the inverter TIG was the only load to cause it to trip, neither lathe (2hp and 3hp) or mill (1.5hp) caused an issue and it wasn't even when welding that the RCD tripped it was when turning the welder on so something about that load the RCD didn't like. The electrician tested the RCD and it was faulty.

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Re: triac atc

Post by oblio1612 » Wed 20 Sep , 2017 15:53 pm

it doesn't seem like an rcd issue. the motor has no torque. I can stop it by hand at any speed a lot easier at low speed to stop.

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