Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

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Jon777
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Hardware/Software: Denford Cyclone TU150U

Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by Jon777 » Mon 16 Mar , 2020 18:32 pm

I just bought a 1997 Denford Cyclone TU150U which I’m going to convert to single phase. However I’m a little confused about the motor power as the different specifications don’t agree.

According to the side plate it is 3hp, 2.2 kW on 3-phase 415v with 5000 max rpm.

The KEB VFD for the spindle is 3-phase 415v in and out at up to 4kw.

The Denford manual says the motor is wired Delta.

The KEB Motor plate says 400v Delta is 3.85 kW and 2530rpm. Alternatively 230v Delta and 400v Star gives 2.2kW and 1420rpm. The gearing between the motor and the spindle seems to be 1:1.

The product literature I downloaded from this website says the spindle is 4kw, 5.4hp, 0-5000rpm.

If this really is 3hp and therefore running at 230v then I can run it from a cheap single-stage VFD in delta configuration. However if it is 5.4 hp, I need a very expensive 2-stage VFD.

Could it be that this lathe’s VFD is limited to 230v, 2.2kw as standard from the factory?

Thanks

moray
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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by moray » Mon 16 Mar , 2020 19:19 pm

I think my Cyclone is a similar age.
The motor is inverter rated, so the plate can be a bit misleading if you don't quite understand what the numbers mean.

A key principle to understand, is torque is proportional to current. As motor speed increases, the voltage required to drive the current through the windings increases. Once you reach the limit of the voltage you have available, current then drops off, resulting in the motor changing from being in a constant torque speed range, into a constant power speed range.

Now if you run the motor 240V delta/400V star, the speed at which that change occurs, is 1420rpm. From 0-1420rpm, the motors torque output is constant (it will vary slightly, but I'm going for the basic principles here!), and the power output will rise from 0 to 2.2kw. Once you exceed 1420rpm, the motors torque then starts decreasing, and output power will remain constant.

Now if you run the motor 400V delta, that changeover point is 2530rpm, but output torque will remain constant until that speed, at which point the motor is producing 3.85kw.


I've never actually checked, but I suspect Denford may run at reduced current to give a good margin of safety, so they'll be running 400V delta, but at reduced current, which means they'll be limting motor output to 3kw at 2530rpm, but maintain that 3kw all the way to 5000rpm.

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Jon777
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Hardware/Software: Denford Cyclone TU150U

Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by Jon777 » Tue 17 Mar , 2020 1:57 am

That’s very interesting.

Here is a photo of the motor plate if anyone wants to see it:
6F81BE2F-E509-4756-B8E8-FF12E4AEB3F4.jpeg
6F81BE2F-E509-4756-B8E8-FF12E4AEB3F4.jpeg (350.88 KiB) Viewed 13444 times
You mention that they maintain constant torque to 3kW although on my machine plate it says 2.2kW. Does your machine have a higher rating?

I wonder if I would lose anything with 230V Delta as that has constant torque up to 2.2kW, the same as the rating plate on the machine?

moray
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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by moray » Wed 18 Mar , 2020 0:31 am

Jon777 wrote:
Tue 17 Mar , 2020 1:57 am

You mention that they maintain constant torque to 3kW although on my machine plate it says 2.2kW. Does your machine have a higher rating?

I wonder if I would lose anything with 230V Delta as that has constant torque up to 2.2kW, the same as the rating plate on the machine?
Sorry, should have said 2.2kw.

There is no reason you couldn't.
I would like to know what my VFD is set to, however I've never been able to find the PIN to access the settings.

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by drumsticksplinter » Tue 14 Apr , 2020 15:30 pm

Strange I have just stumbled across this, as I'm venturing down the same path!

I have been doing a Cyclone retrofit for the last 4 years off and on, got it up and running and had to give up my business premises, brought the machine home to my garage. I don't have 3 phase at home, so have to convert to single phase. I traded my KEB spindle VFD in for a new Yaskawa V1000 230v three phase VFD. I will have to double check, but I think my motor is the same as the one in question....

I admit after reading moray's comments, that I have misunderstood the data plates on the machine and assumed I could get 5000rpm out the the motor from a single phase to 3 phase 230v VFD. FYI Moray has helped me out before, with my tool turret :lol:

I am in the process of wiring in the new VFD, so will have to test to find the results. My machine has a 3 jaw chuck as originally supplied, which is only rated to 3750rpm anyway, so 5000rpm would only earn bragging rights. I'm wondering if anywhere in the region of 3000rpm would be achievable with any useable torque, and would the motor withstand being driven in this way?

Sorry to Hijack the topic!

moray
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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by moray » Tue 14 Apr , 2020 20:30 pm

If you want to get a rough idea how much torque will change, just run some numbers through a HP/Torque/Speed calc such as - https://ncalculators.com/electrical/hor ... ulator.htm

Or if you want to get a bit more geeky, you could create a spreadsheet with a chart :lol:
(hint - if you do, do it in metric. the torque/hp/speed formula is simpler!)


Then there is the old fashioned option, of suck it and see. If the spindle stalls, you know you've not got enough torque (or just taken too much of a cut...)

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by drumsticksplinter » Tue 14 Apr , 2020 21:47 pm

Thanks for the advice, I have tried a couple of the calculators just to compare the results. So it seems for this size motor at least, that if the rated speed was doubled, the torque would be around half or just less. The numbers don't really mean a whole lot to me in real word terms, so I guess you're suggested (and my go to) method of suck it and see will have to come into play. I'm not planning on doing any mass production with my machine, so can drive it a little easier and take a few more lighter cuts if needed. (fingers crossed)

Well @Jon777 if you don't beat me to it, I'll give this a go and feed back the results, or it may take me another 4 years to get there.... :lol:

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by drumsticksplinter » Wed 22 Apr , 2020 15:01 pm

A bit of an update...

I managed to get the spindle working this morning with a Yaskawa V1000 single to 3 phase vfd!

Initial tests have shown it can run up to 3000 rpm with no load quite comfortably, pulling a current of around 3Amps. I need to try it cutting to see if it has enough power at this speed, but everything seems to be ok with the finger in the air approach :lolol:

My machine is now 100% single phase in and I've so far managed to test everything with it powered from a 13A plug. Standing current draw is only 0.75A with all power supplies/ lights/ fans on and drives at idle. Don't worry I'm not intending to run the thing off a 13A plug though, it will get hard wired into a 25A isolator with 20A breaker.

Hope this helps anyone else in the same predicament

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by Jon777 » Tue 28 Apr , 2020 11:09 am

moray wrote:
Wed 18 Mar , 2020 0:31 am
I would like to know what my VFD is set to, however I've never been able to find the PIN to access the settings.
That's interesting that you mention the need for a PIN to access the settings on the KEB F4 VFD. How do you know this as the KEBs as supplied by Denford come with neither a Display Operator or Interface Operator (to connect a PC)?

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Jon777
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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by Jon777 » Tue 28 Apr , 2020 11:17 am

drumsticksplinter wrote:
Tue 14 Apr , 2020 21:47 pm
Well @Jon777 if you don't beat me to it, I'll give this a go and feed back the results, or it may take me another 4 years to get there.... :lol:
@drumsticksplinter I see you did beat me to it. I've got a long way to go on mine as I only recently bought it. I've got my eye on a Yaskawa V1000 4KW VFD too.

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Jon777
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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by Jon777 » Tue 28 Apr , 2020 11:34 am

I spoke to KEB and asked them the maximum speed this motor is rated for and they said 3600 RPM. So why put 5000 RPM as the maximum on the machine when this is way over the spec of the motor?

I see there are 2 different motor specs for the Cyclone. There is the 2.2KW like mine:

Cyclone 2kw.jpg
Cyclone 2kw.jpg (128.15 KiB) Viewed 13106 times

And then there is the 4KW on this later example:

Cyclone 4kw.jpg
Cyclone 4kw.jpg (61.92 KiB) Viewed 13106 times

Could it be that both machines have the exact same motor and VFD but they only differ due to the settings in the VFD? My KEB F4 VFD is spec'd at 4KW.

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by drumsticksplinter » Tue 28 Apr , 2020 12:05 pm

On my spec sheet from Denford, it quotes the motor as 5000RPM 4KW, but I'm pretty sure its the same motor as yours, just originally run at 415v variable frequency rather than 230v variable frequency, both wired in Delta.

Also, you won't need a 4KW VFD if you are switching to 230v input, as the motor is only rated at 2.2KW in this configuration, so you could save some pennies and get a smaller inverter. I got the 4kw, because the KEB I took out was rated at this, but that was driving the motors at higher voltage, hence the higher power rating.

I have done some test cuts, only very lightly with my mpg wheel as I haven't fully got the CAM side sorted, but the motor didn't seem to drop in rpm any, again, if you were putting a 2mm cut on, it might be different... But it might be the wrong machine for the job anyway if you wanted to do that I'd imagine.

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Re: Cyclone TU150U spindle power clarification

Post by moray » Tue 28 Apr , 2020 16:56 pm

Jon777 wrote:
Tue 28 Apr , 2020 11:09 am
moray wrote:
Wed 18 Mar , 2020 0:31 am
I would like to know what my VFD is set to, however I've never been able to find the PIN to access the settings.
That's interesting that you mention the need for a PIN to access the settings on the KEB F4 VFD. How do you know this as the KEBs as supplied by Denford come with neither a Display Operator or Interface Operator (to connect a PC)?
Pfft..you and your modern F4.
Mine has an F0! :lol:

And having just looked at the manual, I see it does list default passwords. I'll have to try them at some point, as I don't think I've noticed them before..

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