Denford cyclone (Fanuc) info

All info relating to the Denford Cyclone lathes

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black8898
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Denford cyclone (Fanuc) info

Post by black8898 » Wed 02 Sep , 2009 17:44 pm

Hi
I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can give me some info regarding a Denford Cyclone cnc lathe of 1992 vintage , this machine is three phase and according to the spec sheet the motor is 3Hp /2.2kw it also says 380/415 volts and then 12amps , what I need to know is does that mean 12 amps per phase ?? or is the 12 amps the overall rating ?? if someone could answer this for me I would be most grateful then I can start looking for a suitable phase converter , maybe someone has the same lathe as me and is using a phase converter and could guide me in the right direction
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 11:37 am

black8898 wrote:Hi
I am new to this forum and am hoping that someone can give me some info regarding a Denford Cyclone cnc lathe of 1992 vintage , this machine is three phase and according to the spec sheet the motor is 3Hp /2.2kw it also says 380/415 volts and then 12amps , what I need to know is does that mean 12 amps per phase ?? or is the 12 amps the overall rating ?? if someone could answer this for me I would be most grateful then I can start looking for a suitable phase converter , maybe someone has the same lathe as me and is using a phase converter and could guide me in the right direction
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

My Cyclones are rated much higher than that so reckon you need info from Denford on your particular machine as they seem to differ quite a lot depending on the control system/motors/servos etc fitted at manufacture!!
I have 2 Cyclones and one shows an FLC (Full Load Current) of 15 Amps and the other one an FLC of 26 Amps on the info plates.

To be safe I would recommend you don`t look at an inverter that will handle less than a total of around 6~7Hp (4.5Kw~5.25Kw) comfortably, 10Hp (7.5Kw) would be best!!
If you wanted to run that kind of power level from a domestic supply then you would need a 30Amp cable direct from your distribution box, much like a shower unit needs, they are usually around the same level of power requirement or higher, some are 8Kw~9Kw!!!!!

The other thing you need to think about is the control system, some won`t run from an inverter very well and Fanuc is one of them, there are some issues regarding how the spindle motor gets it`s power from the usual 3 phases, some inverters have what some term a "virtual" 3rd phase and some control systems require the proper 3 phases!!

Just what I`ve read up on a while ago when I was looking at putting mine on single phase supply, seemed to be quite involved so I shelved the idea!!

Hope it works out for you, the Cyclones are a great machine, just wish I had a tailstock for mine!!!
If anyone has a tailstock for a Cyclone drop me a PM!!!

Regards
Rob
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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 12:53 pm

Hi Rob
thanks for the info , have just checked the plate on side of power box and you are correct the FLC of this machine is 15amps , do you use any sort of inverter/converter ? is which one or are you running from 3 phase ? I did have a Boxford 250 cnc lathe (dirty word) before I bought this machine and that has worked fine for some 13 years and had retroffited it to run with Mach3 , but this machine came along and did have an 8 station auto tool changer which is something that I really needed to continue my work more easily , sorry I don't have a tailstock either and I could do with one so if you come acrross 2 then let me know
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 13:37 pm

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Hi Alan

No, I have not run any machines from single phase, went down the road of renting a small industrial unit with 3 phase already installed and it has caused me to end up with too much machinery, usually happens, if you have the space you end up filling it!!!

What control system is on your Cyclone?? Both mine have Fanuc, one is OTB and the other is OTC!!

I bought the OTB one as spares because it didn`t have a power supply box with it but then found that the OTB and OTC boards/drives/motors etc are not interchangable so it just sits there taking up space!!!
Also I found when I got it back to my place that it worked fine so it seemed a shame to start breaking it up to sell off as spare parts so if anyone out there wants to make their own power supply box then make me an offer for the machine, last time I had it connected up it worked fine!!

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 14:56 pm

Hi Rob
my machine has a Fanuc OT fitted to it , the year of manufacture of this lathe is 1992 , anyway do not know if you can give me a bit more advice I have seen on Ebay this unit item number 120463064503 it is a digital converter/inverter rated at 15hp and is 11kw , do you think that this is suitable ?? I really must get the machine up and running as I need to make some parts for my engines , I design and make jet engines for radio control aircraft more these days as a hobby than a business as my health is not that good but I do still supply people all over the world , am now starting to run out of parts so need to get up and running so if you think that this would do the job please let me know as I cannot trust any of the companies that I have contacted to tell me what I need to know , I do have a friend who could convert this to a rotary converter if you think that is required
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 15:18 pm

Hi Alan

Had a look at the item on Ebay and a couple of things in the description bother me a little, power wise it would appear to be plenty big enough to cope but it does say an 80 Amp single phase supply is needed, that`s a lot of power for one phase to handle, I suppose if it will run on less input if the output isn`t needed to be it`s full capacity!! The other is at the bottom it also says it will need filters to be able to run any electronic equipment so it must be a pretty "raw" output!!

To be honest if you have a friend who has the expertise to be able to convert such a piece of equipment then I have to say he would know a huge amount more about the subject than I do!!

Coincidence, I modify/tune/build 2 stroke engines for large scale RC models :mrgreen: Small world eh!!

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 17:06 pm

Hi Rob
I take it you have used your machines with the 3 phase , did you manually load programs ? or do you use a cad cam system then connect to machine via 232 cable ? I use Mastercam V4 but not sure if I can connect using the 232 cable and download my program direct to machine or whether I need to use a different computer so that I can run the text editor that Denford supply , at the moment my main computer is running Microsoft Windows 7 and will not run a Dos program so would possibly need to use a computer that runs Windows 98 , any info would greatly appreciated
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 17:27 pm

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
I take it you have used your machines with the 3 phase , did you manually load programs ? or do you use a cad cam system then connect to machine via 232 cable ? I use Mastercam V4 but not sure if I can connect using the 232 cable and download my program direct to machine or whether I need to use a different computer so that I can run the text editor that Denford supply , at the moment my main computer is running Microsoft Windows 7 and will not run a Dos program so would possibly need to use a computer that runs Windows 98 , any info would greatly appreciated
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

I use RS232 cable to upload to the machine, the DNC software I use comes as part of the Cad-CAM software I have, I don`t know if Master CAM have a DNC built in to their software or not, if not then you will need one frome some where!!

Probably the best one around is EasyDNC, don`t know how much it is but here is the link http://www.easydnc.com/
Or, there is a good free one from here http://www.cadem.com/ you have to download the evaluation version of their Cad-CAM software but you get to keep the little DNC software for free for ever!!

Both of these work fine in Windows XP Pro etc so a Windows environment is OK, don`t need to be going looking for an old PC with 98 etc!!!!

See below for RS232 cable connections for a 9 pin at the PC end and the 25 pin on the Denford machine, that`s what mine has anyway!
Memory isn`t a huge issue with the machine as the Fanuc will "drip feed" no problem!!

Regards
Rob
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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 17:43 pm

Hi Rob
thanks for the info and cable connections that has helped out a lot , I think Mastercam does have a DNC software will have to have a look and see , if I do encounter any problems along the way do you mind if I come back to you ??
Many thanks for your help
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 20:42 pm

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
thanks for the info and cable connections that has helped out a lot , I think Mastercam does have a DNC software will have to have a look and see , if I do encounter any problems along the way do you mind if I come back to you ??
Many thanks for your help
Alan
Hi Alan

Yes, I`ve had a look on the MasterCAM website and they do have a DNC software available as an "add on" but no info on how much!!!!!!!

I`d go for the "freebie" first and if that works for you then it`s "quids in" as they say!!

No, I don`t mind helping out, that`s what these Forums are all about, I had lots of help from other people when I was struggling, just passing it on!!!

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 22:05 pm

Hi Rob
have just been to the easydnc site and have downloaded the software which appears to be free , will now try to sort out a cable whilst waiting to hear back about a power supply
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Thu 03 Sep , 2009 22:29 pm

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
have just been to the easydnc site and have downloaded the software which appears to be free , will now try to sort out a cable whilst waiting to hear back about a power supply
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

The free download and free "activation key" are a time limited fully functioning version, it will stop working after a couple of months, If I remember correctly the price of the EasyDNC is $190 US Dollar which is about £116 GB Pounds.
A tip, don`t activate the EasyDNC software till you have the machine up and running and the PC setup for it!! No point in using up your free time if the machine isn`t running.

Try the free one first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Fri 04 Sep , 2009 12:51 pm

Hi Rob
have downloaded the DNC software from Cadem and it is quite good but it does not allow drip feed , may I ask what Cadcam software you are using ? some sites say that it is better to go from 25 pin to 25 pin with the cable and to a 9 pin , do you know if there is any real difference ?
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Fri 04 Sep , 2009 17:09 pm

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
have downloaded the DNC software from Cadem and it is quite good but it does not allow drip feed , may I ask what Cadcam software you are using ? some sites say that it is better to go from 25 pin to 25 pin with the cable and to a 9 pin , do you know if there is any real difference ?
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

I am using BobCAD-CAM which comes with Predator software for the Graphics simulation and Editor that has a built in DNC.

My cable is a 25 to 25 pin cable but it is changed to a 9 pin using an adapter so I could use a "Serial to USB" adapter as my Laptop doesn`t have a Serial port so had to go USB.

If you do go 25 to 25 pin and then use a 25 to 9 pin adapter to plug in to your computer then be aware that some 25 to 9 pin adapters have some connections crossed over internally, if memory serves it is pins 2 and 3 that are crossed, if this is the case then you would need to change the wiring connections inside your 25 pin plug.

As for any difference in performance/usage I have no idea, sorry!!!

Regards
Rob
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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Fri 04 Sep , 2009 19:36 pm

Hi Rob
after what seems like hours I ave found hidden away in Mastercam I have found the software that I need , it has installed with the main program Cimco DNC and Cimco editor software so all that fuss trying to find what I already had , I might do my cable with 25 pins both ends as I have a port on main computer that is not used for anything , still trying to get a phase converter at what I call a sensible price , let you know how things go
Thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Fri 04 Sep , 2009 20:50 pm

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
after what seems like hours I ave found hidden away in Mastercam I have found the software that I need , it has installed with the main program Cimco DNC and Cimco editor software so all that fuss trying to find what I already had , I might do my cable with 25 pins both ends as I have a port on main computer that is not used for anything , still trying to get a phase converter at what I call a sensible price , let you know how things go
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

Not sure but I would expect a 25 pin socket on your PC to be a printer port?? Not a serial port??

Anyway, here is a diagram for 25 pin to 25 pin cable.

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Mon 07 Sep , 2009 0:31 am

Hi Rob
I keep meaning to ask you about setting tools up in auto tool changer , I know all about how to set uo the tool offsets but what about tool height ? my other cnc had a quick change tool post so that was just a matter of moving the hold up or down to get the correct setting but I cannot find anything in the manual that I have about the height setting , most likely something very simple that is staring me in the face , should have a rotary converter here for Tuesday , Wednesday at the very latest so hope to be up and running very shortly , sorry one other thing I have had one or two people say that I should run the tools upside down , I have never done that before , is it just a matter of preference ??
Many thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Mon 07 Sep , 2009 1:01 am

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
I keep meaning to ask you about setting tools up in auto tool changer , I know all about how to set uo the tool offsets but what about tool height ? my other cnc had a quick change tool post so that was just a matter of moving the hold up or down to get the correct setting but I cannot find anything in the manual that I have about the height setting , most likely something very simple that is staring me in the face , should have a rotary converter here for Tuesday , Wednesday at the very latest so hope to be up and running very shortly , sorry one other thing I have had one or two people say that I should run the tools upside down , I have never done that before , is it just a matter of preference ??
Many thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

There is no height setting required on the Cyclone turret nor is there any facility for it, not like a conventional Lathe.
The Barufaldi Turret takes 12mm tooling and that puts the tool tip at the correct height, no adjusting, shimming to do!! Easy!!

Yes, the tools MUST be fitted "upside down" as in effect the turret has been revolved around the axis of the spindle and is at the rear instead of the front, if you always remember that you shouldn`t get confused when it comes to drawing in your Cad-CAM.
As normal when viewed from the back of the spindle "Where the belt is" then the rotation is "clockwise" as normal with any lathe so the tool has to be "upside down" because it is cutting at the back side of the workpiece.

Lots of people run manual lathes with 2 tools, one front and one rear to save on tool changes and of course the back one is upside down, old trick that one!!

Good luck

Regards
Rob

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by black8898 » Mon 07 Sep , 2009 9:50 am

Hi Rob
on the Boxford 250cnc lathe that I have just sold that was a slant bed and tools cut from back but the tools were al fitted up the right way and cut as normal and when standing at back of spindle it went anti-clockwise ( used the code M3), so are you saying that was wrong ?? but you are saaying that I should fit tools on this lathe the other way ??
Many thanks
Alan

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Re: Denford cyclone info

Post by Lone_Ranger » Mon 07 Sep , 2009 10:33 am

black8898 wrote:Hi Rob
on the Boxford 250cnc lathe that I have just sold that was a slant bed and tools cut from back but the tools were al fitted up the right way and cut as normal and when standing at back of spindle it went anti-clockwise ( used the code M3), so are you saying that was wrong ?? but you are saaying that I should fit tools on this lathe the other way ??
Many thanks
Alan
Hi Alan

On a normal lathe the spindle usually turns towards the front/operator and viewed from the rear of the spindle this is clockwise.
Normal M codes are M3 is clockwise rotation and M4 is anticlockwise as viewed from the spindle drive end for both lathes and mills.
So yes, I would say that the Boxford was setup different to what is usual on a lathe.

On the Cyclone turret the tools are held in place by tapered blocks that lock the tool in when tightened down. the face of the slot that is opposite to the locking block is exactly 12mm from the centre line of the turret so the "back" of the 12mm tool (Or bottom if it was the normal way up!!) goes against this face and the tool tip is then correctly aligned with the centre line of the spindle!!

Like I said, no adjustment available or needed, any adjustment required for tool wear or tool nose radius is done in the machine offsets.

I repeat, you MUST fit the tools "upside down" in the Cyclone turret for them to be correctly aligned with the centre line of the spindle.

I usually use Glanze indexable tool holders, reasonably priced and pretty decent quality, they do some nice little sets that all use the same size insert. Have a look here http://www.chronos.ltd.uk

Regards
Rob
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